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Matching planet labels
- Matching planet labels
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RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 04-04-2025, 08:41 AM
(04-04-2025, 07:30 AM)voynichrose Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I really enjoyed your essay about the rulership of planets on f67r2. Yet what troubled me was two things. A total complete rulership is very rare and the colored waning moons. So I came away from f67r2 as a night and day property of astrology. I changed the position of the sun to be setting so that all the planets could have their positive strengths from a halfway above and below the horizon so that red fit all the planets but not the sun. Just a focus on the planets. So its not a complete rulership.
I like your use of the f67r2 better than my idea on Henry the 5th!
What do you think about the big moon face at 4 o'clock, one that you paired with Mercury? To me it looks deliberately bigger than the others, that was one of the reasons I preferred pairings where this would be the Moon or the Sun. On the other hand, Mercury could be the brightest thing in the sky. Overall, any pairing where Mercury is next to the Sun and Venus is no farther than two slots away from the sun would work for most domicile arrangements.
(04-04-2025, 07:30 AM)voynichrose Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We must look at every sunset between 1404–1438 to see if the planet line up like this.
I tried to find this sky configuration in the XV century while computing charts back in 2023, the results were:
Code:1497-10-19 00:56 Mars=oKal in Aqu / Saturn=dalchsody in Ari / Moon=yFain in Gem / Venus=yToaiin in Vir / Sun=oFar oeoldan in Lib / Mercury=oPcholdy in Sco / Jupiter=oKain am in S ag starting at Aquarius days ago 192092.0 correction 0, computed moon in Gemini, moon angle correction 0
1461-04-21 20:59 Moon=oKal in Can / Mars=dalchsody in Vir / Jupiter=yFain in Sco / Saturn=yToaiin in Aqu / Venus=oFar oeoldan in Pis / Mercury=oPcholdy in Ari / Sun=oKain am in T au starting at Cancer days ago 205423.5 correction 0, computed moon in Cancer, moon angle correction 0
If we consider the possibility of +/- 15 degrees of error for the Moon in our model, the following dates are added to the first half of XV:
1416-04-17 01:41 Saturn=oKal in Can / Moon=dalchsody in Vir / Mars=yFain in Sco / Jupiter=yToaiin in Aqu / Venus=oFar oeoldan in Pis / Sun=oPcholdy in Ari / Mercury=oKain am in T au starting at Cancer days ago 221863.25 correction 0, computed moon in Libra, moon angle correction -15
1421-02-07 03:05 Mars=oKal in Tau / Jupiter=dalchsody in Can / Saturn=yFain in Vir / Moon=yToaiin in Sag / Venus=oFar oeoldan in Cap / Sun=oPcholdy in Aqu / Mercury=oKain am in P is starting at Taurus days ago 220108.0 correction 0, computed moon in Capricorn, moon angle correction -15
1449-03-12 14:45 Moon=oKal in Can / Saturn=dalchsody in Vir / Jupiter=yFain in Sco / Mercury=yToaiin in Aqu / Sun=oFar oeoldan in Pis / Venus=oPcholdy in Ari / Mars=oKain am in T au starting at Cancer days ago 209847.25 correction 0, computed moon in Leo, moon angle correction -15
1421 point looks interesting, because it puts Aries at the top of the chart (oKal in Taurus would be to the left of Aries). If we added +/- 1 degree of freedom to the vernal equinox an additional point appears in 1421, swapping the Moon and Venus:
1421-02-05 09:41 Mars=oKal in Tau / Jupiter=dalchsody in Can / Saturn=yFain in Vir / Venus=yToaiin in Sag / Moon=oFar oeoldan in Cap / Sun=oPcholdy in Aqu / Mercury=oKain am in P is starting at Taurus days ago 220109.75 correction -1, computed moon in Sagittarius, moon angle correction 15
Also there is one thing of interest, I'm not sure if this was discussed previously. These is an almost perfect textual match between one of the planet labels EVA-opcholdy (the Sun in your chart, Mercury in De Sphaere version) and the top right label of the TO map from f68v3, EVA-opcholdg.
The only similar words between the TO map sections and the list of classical planets I can think of are Africa and Aphrodite (as Venus), if rendered in a language that would use the same symbol for 'f/ph', like Greek. But this is not a very good fit. First of all, upper right is a weird place for Africa on a TO map. And while I think it's not a stretch to assume a medieval writer could call "Africa" Ἀφρική and not the original Greek name Λιβύη, and it's possible they used Ἀφροδίτη for Venus, both words still don't look nearly as similar as EVA-opcholdg and EVA-opcholdy. They would look a bit more similar if instead of Africa the TO-map referred to some generic "foam" (ἀφρός) and shortened the planet name to Ἀφροδ.
On the other hand, f67r2 and f68v3 are very close to one another, so it's possible to just dismiss this as an "autocopy". -
RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 04-04-2025, 10:50 AM
I asked ChatGPT to give me translations of 4 planet names, 3 parts of the world and 4 elements into medieval versions of various languages. Note that I'm not sure if this result is accurate, for example, there were other terms for planets in Greek (like Ἑωσφόρος/Φωσφόρος for Venus), but could be a starting point to try matching a possible planet name to a section of TO map.
This chart is AI generated.
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RE: Matching planet labels
Ruby Novacna > 04-04-2025, 01:20 PM
(04-04-2025, 10:50 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I asked ChatGPT to give me translations of 4 planet names, 3 parts of the world and 4 elements into medieval versions of various languages.
Why do you think these are the names of the planets?
P.S. I hesitate to say more for fear that my post will be interpreted as promoting my theory. -
RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 04-04-2025, 01:47 PM
(04-04-2025, 01:20 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Why do you think these are the names of the planets?
Because it's 7 labels assigned to 12 slots, and the presence of moon faces suggests astrological/astronomical nature of the page. 7 labels and 12 slots correspond nicely to 7 classical planets and 12 signs of Zodiac. This is certainly not my idea, I'm not sure who was the first to suggest it. E.g., the annotation to this page on Voynich.nu includes the following remark: "The seven more or less separate words are very suggestive, and could represent the seven planets." You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(It's not necessarily the planet names themselves though, could be some different attributes or properties unique to each planet.)
What alternative interpretation is there? -
RE: Matching planet labels
Juan_Sali > 04-04-2025, 01:49 PM
(04-04-2025, 08:41 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The only similar words between the TO map sections and the list of classical planets I can think of are Africa and Aphrodite (as Venus)
Africa as south (german sud) and Saturn, they share the first letter. -
RE: Matching planet labels
RadioFM > 04-04-2025, 02:15 PM
This has been one of my favorite "systems of equation" using potential cribs for a while now, as we have some overlap between several labels relating to TO and astrology:
Still, we can't exclude the possibility that these labels may not refer to names, but perhaps related words (attributes, mnemonics), or that the TO map is not a geographical Europe-Africa-Asia depiction. In fact, that same TO map has multiple vords below on the lower half circle, not just 1 label possibly being "Asia", "Europa" or "Africa".
Also, if there's a ciphertext using roman numerals or requiring looking an indexed entry on a dictionary, two similar vords could turn out to be different, non-related plaintext words.