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• Plant Id.

  Dispator > 01-10-2017, 06:12 PM

  Hello everyone!
   I'm a herbalist from the Adriatic area and i would like to join in on the discussion of the VM MS408 on this forum, seems the community is fairly active and solid, cheers.
  
  
  as the name of the thread says this is about plant id. namely items on folios F3r  F3v  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  Asplenium billotii
  
  Aconitum napellus aka MONKSHOOD
  HEDERA

• RE: Plant Id.

  davidjackson > 01-10-2017, 07:31 PM

  Hello Dispator and welcome to the forums!
  Plant ID's aren't my speciality, but I'm sure others will soon comment upon your proposed ID's.
  You would be better off explaining a little bit why you think these are the correct ID's, rather than just posting an image and letting people make up their own minds. A descriptive explanation is best.

• RE: Plant Id.

  Dispator > 01-10-2017, 08:19 PM

  (01-10-2017, 07:31 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hello Dispator and welcome to the forums!
  Plant ID's aren't my speciality, but I'm sure others will soon comment upon your proposed ID's.
  You would be better off explaining a little bit why you think these are the correct ID's, rather than just posting an image and letting people make up their own minds. A descriptive explanation is best.

  
  Hello and thanks.
  I'm more interested in fresh commentaries and opinions, rather than me trying to "sell" or convince others that i am correct.
  Besides were in modern times those interested can read up about the plants easily

• RE: Plant Id.

  -JKP- > 01-10-2017, 10:08 PM

  Hello, Dispator, welcome to the forum.
  
  It takes a long time to get know exactly how the VMS illustrator draws things. I spent several months looking at all the drawings, over and over, before I began trying to ID a single one. I wanted to learn which parts were accurate, which parts were fanciful, which parts were stylized, how the illustrator perceived leaves, why certain things were added (like dots).
  
  Once I was familiar with the drawing style, then I put two years of concerted effort into IDing them.
  
  
  For your first ID, you've noted a fern for f3r.
  
  A fern has joined leaves with spores in discrete pockets. The VMS You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. plant has a row of separate leaves, alternately red and green. I don't see any fused leaves or distinct pockets of spores. I'm fairly sure those dots along the edges of the leaves are not spores. I think they are intended to represent either actual dots (some plants have dots along the edges) or perhaps a tight ruffle that is hard to draw (many plants have these).
  
  
  The next one is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which you've identified as monkshood.
  
  It's difficult to know what this plant might be because the leaves are stylized and possibly mnemonic in content. If they are mnemonic, then they might not represent the actual shape of the leaf. The seed or flower heads are exaggerated, which might mean that this is the part of the plant that is used. I don't have a good ID for this plant, but I suspect it might be a form of moss and the unusual shapes at the top might be sporophytes. There are a few mosses with very large round sporophytes which, when they ripen, open out into the disc-shaped flat areas one sees in the drawings.
  
  I don't think the VMS illustrator would have drawn monkshood flowers this way and you must keep in mind that the flowers of this plant might not be blue, as the illustrator had a very limited palette with which to indicate flower colors and may POSSIBLY have chosen blue to symbolically represent seedheads (you can look at the other drawings to confirm whether this might be so, but there does appear to be a pattern).
  
  
  You've identified 8r as Hedera (common ivy).
  
  This ID illustrates why it is important to look at ALL the drawings before making IDs. If you look at the other drawings, you'll note that the VMS illustrator has a particular way of drawing plants that look like ivy or have ivy-like qualities (like a climbing habit or tendrils). This drawing is not drawn in the same way. It very specifically emphasizes one leaf and there are plants that will come up in the spring with one or two big leaves and sometimes no more (in fact, some only have one leaf), or the other leaves will follow quite a bit later.
  
  
  We welcome your ideas, there's always room for a fresh take on things, and maybe it is some kind of ivy, but it's also important to become familiar with the VMS iconography. Whoever created the plant drawings had certain ways of doing things that were fairly consistent, even though the plants themselves are quite varied.

• RE: Plant Id.

  Dispator > 01-10-2017, 10:37 PM

  (01-10-2017, 10:08 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hello, Dispator, welcome to the forum.
  
  It takes a long time to get know exactly how the VMS illustrator draws things. I spent several months looking at all the drawings, over and over, before I began trying to ID a single one. I wanted to learn which parts were accurate, which parts were fanciful, which parts were stylized, how the illustrator perceived leaves, why certain things were added (like dots).
  
  Once I was familiar with the drawing style, then I put two years of concerted effort into IDing them.
  
  
  For your first ID, you've noted a fern for f3r.
  
  A fern has joined leaves with spores in discrete pockets. The VMS You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. plant has a row of separate leaves, alternately red and green. I don't see any fused leaves or distinct pockets of spores. I'm fairly sure those dots along the edges of the leaves are not spores. I think they are intended to represent either actual dots (some plants have dots along the edges) or perhaps a tight ruffle that is hard to draw (many plants have these).
  
  
  The next one is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which you've identified as monkshood.
  
  It's difficult to know what this plant might be because the leaves are stylized and possibly mnemonic in content. If they are mnemonic, then they might not represent the actual shape of the leaf. The seed or flower heads are exaggerated, which might mean that this is the part of the plant that is used. I don't have a good ID for this plant, but I suspect it might be a form of moss and the unusual shapes at the top might be sporophytes. There are a few mosses with very large round sporophytes which, when they ripen, open out into the disc-shaped flat areas one sees in the drawings.
  
  I don't think the VMS illustrator would have drawn monkshood flowers this way and you must keep in mind that the flowers of this plant might not be blue, as the illustrator had a very limited palette with which to indicate flower colors and may POSSIBLY have chosen blue to symbolically represent seedheads (you can look at the other drawings to confirm whether this might be so, but there does appear to be a pattern).
  
  
  You've identified 8r as Hedera (common ivy).
  
  This ID illustrates why it is important to look at ALL the drawings before making IDs. If you look at the other drawings, you'll note that the VMS illustrator has a particular way of drawing plants that look like ivy or have ivy-like qualities (like a climbing habit or tendrils). This drawing is not drawn in the same way. It very specifically emphasizes one leaf and there are plants that will come up in the spring with one or two big leaves and sometimes no more (in fact, some only have one leaf), or the other leaves will follow quite a bit later.
  
  
  We welcome your ideas, there's always room for a fresh take on things, and maybe it is some kind of ivy, but it's also important to become familiar with the VMS iconography. Whoever created the plant drawings had certain ways of doing things that were fairly consistent, even though the plants themselves are quite varied.

  Hi, thanks for the reply to add i have been looking at this book for quite some time 14-15 years on/off so i think i have some experience with the iconography and i agree with you about the fern though i think its quite possible it is of the same genus.
  
  Aconitum i believe is represented fairly well though a bit obscured possibly symbolic, also the roots are on point.
  
  Can you maybe list the climbing plants you are referring to and some examples of one leafed plants with same leafs, F8r looks like an obvious Hedera to me. it climbs from the bottom to the top of the page+the amount of text on that page suggest Hedera cause of its long history of use and worship.

• RE: Plant Id.

  Dispator > 01-10-2017, 10:53 PM

  
  
  
  Note the yellow stigma, also MonksHood/Wolfs bane was the favorite poison of medieval times.tipped arrows  often used for hunt or murder.

• RE: Plant Id.

  -JKP- > 01-10-2017, 11:04 PM

  I don't know if I would call the monkshood root "on point".
  
  The VMS has a very long segmented tap root or rhizome with a curled tip and a knob (the curled tip might be mnemonic). Monkshood has a shorter root that is quite thick (and sometimes double-thick) at the point where it joins the stem. The VMS 3v root isn't drawn this way.
  
  Also, monkshood has alternate leaves. Most of the leaf attachments on the VMS plants are correct as to alternate or opposite (I don't know if they all are but the ones that are identifiable are quite accurate most of the time). VMS 3v has opposite leaves.
  
  Monkshood has a flower spike. The VMS plant does not have a flower spike, it has two discrete large ovoid terminal shapes (which are reminiscent of sporophytes).
  
  Monkshood flowers have an indented portion that is lighter. The VMS plant has a broad flattened end that is lighter (again, more like a sporophyte or other form of seed capsule than a flower).
  
  
  I'm not saying all aspects of the VMS plants are dead accurate, but the illustrator did have a certain way of drawing things that was more accurate than many drawings of the time, and I don't think a VMS flower spike would have been drawn this way.

• RE: Plant Id.

  -JKP- > 01-10-2017, 11:10 PM

  (01-10-2017, 10:37 PM)Dispator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
  Hi, thanks for the reply to add i have been looking at this book for quite some time 14-15 years on/off so i think i have some experience with the iconography and i agree with you about the fern though i think its quite possible it is of the same genus.
  
  Aconitum i believe is represented fairly well though a bit obscured possibly symbolic, also the roots are on point.
  
  Can you maybe list the climbing plants you are referring to and some examples of one leafed plants with same leafs, F8r looks like an obvious Hedera to me. it climbs from the bottom to the top of the page+the amount of text on that page suggest Hedera cause of its long history of use and worship.

  
  If you've been looking at it for 14-15 years on/off then you don't need me to tell you which ones are vines, climbing plants, or have tendrils. They're quite obvious. I'm afraid I can't anyway. I'm running two businesses and this is the busiest time of year for me. I don't get Sundays off (global commerce, all time zones), and was just contacted by three new clients today. Gotta run.

• RE: Plant Id.

  Dispator > 01-10-2017, 11:25 PM

  (01-10-2017, 11:10 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (01-10-2017, 10:37 PM)Dispator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
  Hi, thanks for the reply to add i have been looking at this book for quite some time 14-15 years on/off so i think i have some experience with the iconography and i agree with you about the fern though i think its quite possible it is of the same genus.
  
  Aconitum i believe is represented fairly well though a bit obscured possibly symbolic, also the roots are on point.
  
  Can you maybe list the climbing plants you are referring to and some examples of one leafed plants with same leafs, F8r looks like an obvious Hedera to me. it climbs from the bottom to the top of the page+the amount of text on that page suggest Hedera cause of its long history of use and worship.

  
  If you've been looking at it for 14-15 years on/off then you don't need me to tell you which ones are vines, climbing plants, or have tendrils. They're quite obvious. I'm afraid I can't anyway. I'm running two businesses and this is the busiest time of year for me. I don't get Sundays off (global commerce, all time zones), and was just contacted by three new clients today. Gotta run.

  
  Good luck my season work just passed 2 weeks ago ill upload a couple more more pictures to make interested ponder some more
  aconitum roots are tubular and sequential, earlier depiction of plant from Pliny
  better picture
  
  
  also hedera/ivy roots
  

• RE: Plant Id.

  -JKP- > 02-10-2017, 02:42 AM

  Are you sure that's a wild Aconitum?
  
  Don't forget, this is an early 15th-century drawing.
  
  The monkshood in your picture looks like a more recent domestic species. The ones I've seen in medieval herbals are the wild or heritage varieties and tend to have wispier leaves.
  
  Or, if it's the Mediterranean variety (as illustrated in the Juliana Anicia codex), it is shown with very broad, almost elliptical leaves.
  
  
  If you want to look at a plant that resembles Aconitum in the VMS, a plant with numerous flowers on a  stalk, deeply serrated leaves, and yam-like tubers, look at the plant on f93v. The roots are a very good match for the eastern Aconitum (Aconitum carmichaeli - autumn monkshood). They  are broader and thicker than the more common Aconitum napellus.
  
     
  
  
  
  I'm not saying You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is necesarily Aconitum (if it is, it's one of the larger-tuber varieties and the seeds are shown without pods), but I believe it's closer to how the VMS illustrator would draw a plant like Aconitum than the drawing on f3v.
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