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Resemblance between central rosette's "towers" and small-plants' "containers".
- Resemblance between central rosette's "towers" and small-plants' "containers".
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RE: Resemblance between central rosette's "towers" and small-plants' "containers".
-JKP- > 16-06-2017, 10:04 PM
Quote:From my point of view, it is obvious that the Rosettes "map" relates to some liquids and processes with them (distillation, Earth and/or Cosmic water circulation, water engine
, etc)
This is why I searched extensively for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Unfortunately, documentation on the early water gardens (14th and 15th century) is sparse. They aren't well documented until the 16th century when piping technology became more sophisticated and "theatrical" effects were possible.
Also, it's possible that some of the 16th-century water gardens were built on top of older ones (extensive renovations), so there are no traces of the earlier designs. There may be some garden plans in dusty corners of libraries that remain unstudied, but finding them would be challenging and very time-consuming. There were a few around Rome but, again, documentation is sparse. Despite the relative scarcity of plans for water gardens, I gathered many plans of medieval gardens in general but there are so many common themes and layouts that it's hard to know if any specific one could be related to the VMS.
The Villa di Pratolino was a water garden built in the 16th century. Water was sprayed, as in the Villa d'Este gardens, and of interest is a series of cascading pools much like the pools in which the VMS nymphs are bathing.
The garden of Perugia (on the site of the first Benedictine monastery) is not expressly a water garden, but it dates back to the 12th century and includes an area with zodiac signs and plants that relate to specific constellations. Two trees mark heaven and earth. The entire thing is steeped in ancient symbolism and gardens of this sort could potentially have inspired the kinds of imagery we see in the VMS.
It's been my feeling for a long time that whoever created the VMS may have been interested in water gardens or may have lived in or near a villa with water gardens, or near a resort-style area with natural bathing pools. Unfortunately, there are many such places (far more than I would have guessed, I have hundreds of pictures) and they all look very much the same. -
RE: Resemblance between central rosette's "towers" and small-plants' "containers".
VViews > 16-06-2017, 10:25 PM
Hi Jake Cross,
welcome to the forum!
You are correct that the way the water element is represented in the Ripley Scroll image is not a good match with the central rosette's starry canopy.
About your interpretation: I find the parallel with ciboria interesting, and I would like to know if you have any ideas about why there would be six of them in this image.
Beyond that, I'm not sure I understand the structure you propose for the crowns and tiara.
Are you saying the floating starry canopy is a crown, surrounded by the six "ciboria"?
The starry canopy is not just surrounded by the six "ciboria", it is actually floating in mid air, or possibly resting on their edges. It is clearly depicted as a flat thing. To me this does not really fit well with a crown. Do you have any examples of ancient or medieval crowns depicted in this way?
Also, am I correct in understanding that you propose that the scalloped circles around the ciboria are the tiers of a papal tiara? In that case, how is the crown at the base of the tiara, if there are ciboria in between?
Even though medieval perspective representation is often a bit dodgy, I don't see how a crown surrounded by ciboria can then be surrounded by the concentric layers of a tiara.
Perhaps I've misunderstood you? -
RE: Resemblance between central rosette's "towers" and small-plants' "containers".
-JKP- > 22-06-2017, 06:21 AM
(07-06-2017, 12:30 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In a recent blog post I touched upon the subject of the similarity between the small-plants containers and the central rosette's towers.
![[Image: untitled-9.jpg]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/untitled-9.jpg)
This has obviously been noted before, but I haven't read any proposed solutions for it yet. Does anyone have an idea?
Okay... well, one of the ideas I have I'd like to keep to myself until I have time to write it up properly.
But... I have other ideas for why the "towers" on the rosettes page resemble containers, and this is one of them...
They look like towers, but they have feet. They look like containers, but they seem to be out of scale, bigger, like architectural features. Is there something that looks like towers, looks like containers (or is a container) and has feet? Something besides Jewish spice jars which usually have pointed roofs rather than domes...
Yes.This is just one example and perhaps not the best one in terms of the feet (Italy 12th century) but provides a possible explanation:
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To give a sense of how these vary, here is one from India, same basic kind of vessel, but with more emphasis on feet:
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One with a different style of feet (German, 12th century), and different style of upper (also German, 12 century):
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Cologne, Germany (15th century). This is more like a spice jar, so not a good example of shape, but still of interest because it is an early example of one that combines metal with glass:
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A synthesis of container and architecture (Netherlands):
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RE: Resemblance between central rosette's "towers" and small-plants' "containers".
-JKP- > 22-06-2017, 06:49 AM
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RE: Resemblance between central rosette's "towers" and small-plants' "containers".
MarcoP > 22-06-2017, 11:39 AM
A similar line of tower-like containers are German Hanukkah spice boxes, a parallel proposed a while ago by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the context of the small-plants section containers.
Spices have been used in the havdalah ceremony since antiquity, but a spice-container is first mentioned in rabbinical sources only in the 12th century. Early extant examples, by 16th-century German goldsmiths, were made in the shape of towers, a form that has remained popular in many Ashkenazi communities.
The Grove Encyclopedia of Medieval Art and Architecture
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I attached a couple of manuscript illustrations suggesting that the boxes already were architecture-like in the XV Century. -
RE: Resemblance between central rosette's "towers" and small-plants' "containers".
Ruby Novacna > 17-09-2017, 10:58 AM
I use the automatic translator to check the comments on the forum and I regularly find it difficult to find the comments that interested me. In particular I thought I read the comments about reliquaries. I don't know if it is this thread or unother. The ciboriums can be reliquaries and the central rosette can represent a "city with several relics" , Is it Venice, Jerusalem or Constantinople? For example, the Church of the Holy Apostles of Constantinople? -
RE: Resemblance between central rosette's "towers" and small-plants' "containers".
voynichbombe > 17-09-2017, 02:12 PM
I found this while tyding up. Some resemblance? I have another one with a "foot" somewhere, but more tyding need
It is a "Muskal", a bottle holding a small amount of rose oil or rose water from the Bulgarian rose valley. Alas little is to be found out about the very typical shape of the bottle. The cultivation of damascene oil rose started in the 16th century, when Bulgaria was under ottoman rule.
The method of oil extraction is much older and comes from Persia. The word Muskal is also used as a weight unit for the oil, which besides being a base for perfume production, has many medicinal qualities.
Some more from the web:
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RE: Resemblance between central rosette's "towers" and small-plants' "containers".
MarcoP > 18-09-2017, 11:25 AM
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RE: Resemblance between central rosette's "towers" and small-plants' "containers".
-JKP- > 19-09-2017, 12:57 AM
(18-09-2017, 11:25 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represents "the metalwork of the Temple of Solomon. Capitals of molten brass to be set at the top of pillars".
Bodley MS. Laud Misc. 156, England, early XV Century.
Marco, great find. I haven't seen that one. That has to be THE coolest medieval picture of a capital finial I've seen anywhere.
Here's a modern reproduction of some of the medieval-style finials, but it's nowhere near as interesting or ornate as the one you located:
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The joints in the menorah and the curtain rods remind me of the joints in the roots of medieval plants (including the VMS). -
RE: Resemblance between central rosette's "towers" and small-plants' "containers".
Koen G > 19-09-2017, 04:22 AM
That is remarkable indeed! The one you added on the right really looks like something of the same shape put on top of a pillar.
And it's standing on a big red weirdo, but that's probably a coincidence
I wonder if this had a counterpart in real life.