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[Trinity] Questions about Trinity MS script
- [Trinity] Questions about Trinity MS script
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RE: [Trinity] Questions about Trinity MS script
MarcoP > 21-05-2017, 09:08 AM
(20-05-2017, 08:27 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There's another large Diascorides quote on f.85v top. The name of the herb in the "nomen.." phrase is not visible due to damage, but I think it is anagallum, since this returns in the first sentence.
An attempt, expect mistakes
:
Certain authors confirm that anagallum is herba venti. Diascorides agrees with them and says that this herb (per se quod ita??) is called like that because its leaves are always moving like the trembling of leaves on a tree, and because in the wind they move and tremble. Therefore it is called herba venti instead of ??? anagallum.
Hello Koen, I read it slightly differently. I think "s; D 9...9" could be "sed D contrarius". The chapter could be about "herba venti".
quidam auctores affirmant anagallum esse herba venti sed D contrarius est eis et dicit esse herba per se quam ita vocant quod eius folia semper se movent sic folia arboris tremuli et quod per ventum se movent et tremulant ideo dicitur herba venti. loco eius potest poni anagallum
some authors say Anagallum is "the Wind plant" but D is against them and says it is a plant of its own, so called because its leaves always move like the leaves of a trembling tree; since they move and tremble because of the wind, it is called "the Wind Plant". In its place, Anagallum can be put [i.e. used] -
RE: [Trinity] Questions about Trinity MS script
Helmut Winkler > 21-05-2017, 10:59 AM
I think it is just the other way
Quidam auctores afirmant anagallum esse herbam uenti . sed . D . contrarium est eis et dicit esse herba per se que ita vocatur quia eius folia semper se mouent . sicut folia arboris tremuli . et quia per uentum se mouent et tremulant . ideo dicitur herba uenti. loco eius potest poni anagallum
... Some authors affirm that anagallum is identical with h.v. D is of a different opinion and says it is a herb by itself and is called h.v. only because his leafs are trembling ... -
RE: [Trinity] Questions about Trinity MS script
Koen G > 21-05-2017, 10:21 PM
I was pondering how to gain entrance into the "weird section" that starts on f.107, how to connect it to anything at all. I thought I'd start by looking whether there were also "D" references in there, not expecting any at all. I'm not sure if there are many, but to my surprise there are two already on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., one for each plant.
Anyway, here's the first fragment. I think this plant's text may be interesting in in its entirety, but that is still beyond my abilities. I'll just make a clumsy attempt for the "D" quote - I appreciate your help and patience
And D bears witness that as long as the sun is rising(?) this flower appears and opens up, and while the sun is setting this flower falls. And also it does this on other days and it never dies and thus always remains green (inestate??) and... -
RE: [Trinity] Questions about Trinity MS script
-JKP- > 21-05-2017, 11:26 PM
At its geographical peak, in terms of eastern expansion, the Roman Empire included the western half of what we now call Pakistan and Dioscorides was a physician in the Roman army, so it's not surprising that he would include plants from "India" (which may have meant northwest India, now Pakistan) and any plants now-Pakistan may have acquired from their neighbors. -
RE: [Trinity] Questions about Trinity MS script
MarcoP > 22-05-2017, 07:53 AM
(21-05-2017, 10:21 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was pondering how to gain entrance into the "weird section" that starts on f.107, how to connect it to anything at all. I thought I'd start by looking whether there were also "D" references in there, not expecting any at all. I'm not sure if there are many, but to my surprise there are two already on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., one for each plant.
Anyway, here's the first fragment. I think this plant's text may be interesting in in its entirety, but that is still beyond my abilities. I'll just make a clumsy attempt for the "D" quote - I appreciate your help and patience
And D bears witness that as long as the sun is rising(?) this flower appears and opens up, and while the sun is setting this flower falls. And also it does this on other days and it never dies and thus always remains green (inestate??) and...
Hi Koen, I will be away / off-line for a few days, so don't expect me to reply for a while.
107r first plant is called Gyathi (I am not sure if letters are missing at the start); Vedenaych? Bedenaych by the Greek; Valyr by the Hebrew. It grows in Greater India. The leaves are dark green, with no stem, similar to the leaves of grapevine. Small root. It makes flowers looking like girls (with a dark face and yellow hair?).
The passage from D you translated seems correct to me. “inestate et yeme” should be “in aestate et hieme” in summer and winter.
The following passage is also very interesting: [it is always green without dying] as does Lunatica, which common people call Lucia in some places. Lucia is one of the Alchemical Plants, also mentioned in Trinity You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (210v). And Lunatica is Lunaria, the most alchemical of the alchemical plants, discussed (but not illustrated) in Trinity You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
A long list of medical and magical uses of the flowers follows.
At the end: D says that sometimes these flowers speak in the morning, when the sun rises. Pick it in April.
The talking flowers (as well as the illustration) make me think of the speaking trees in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
A “Lucia” with face-like flowers (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) is also discussed in the Udine and Vermont herbals. There is no clear connection with the text of the Trinity ms (plant description and prescriptions are quite different).
Dioscorides actually described a plant with flowers similar to masks (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). -
RE: [Trinity] Questions about Trinity MS script
Helmut Winkler > 22-05-2017, 08:08 AM
Et testatur D . dum sol surgit . ista flos apparet et se aperit : Et dum sol ocasum est . ista flos cadit . et iterum sic facit aliis diebus et numquam mouet S; semper ita manet viridis . in estate et yeme
... while the sun is rising ... and while the sun is down, the flower closes ... it is evergree, in summer and in winter
The next letter after the mouet is a capital S and seems to me to be another reference, Serapion ?
I have some diffficulties with the plant text as well, mostly because it is so much damaged -
RE: [Trinity] Questions about Trinity MS script
ReneZ > 22-05-2017, 08:54 AM
I am really curious whether "D" ever said any of these odd things. -
RE: [Trinity] Questions about Trinity MS script
Koen G > 22-05-2017, 11:54 AM
(22-05-2017, 08:54 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am really curious whether "D" ever said any of these odd things.
To me it looks like the person who compiled this volume had the intention to streamline his sources as much as possible into an Apuleius-like herbal format.. Initially I thought that he used "D" whenever he wanted to add some fanciful tales about plants, but the more I studied it, the less likely that appeared. I think "D" was an actual source, called Diascorides by the scribe. It is certain that this is not the real Dioscorides.
It is indeed true that many of the quotes attributed to this Diascorides are very strange - flowers that talk in the morning, herbs you can use to make your enemies impotent etc. It might be that, as we discussed before, this was some pseudo's work. Another option I'd consider is that these tales came from a source which would have appeared unreliable to the scribe's audience. Some "exotic" collection of miraculous plants, perhaps.