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If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one!
- If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one!
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RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one!
ReneZ > 11-05-2017, 08:01 PM
I can see only one sensible way out of this question for this forum, and this is to strictly forbid advertising of all nature.
Many volumes of more valuable information about the Voynich MS are available freely, at no cost. -
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one!
R. Sale > 11-05-2017, 09:03 PM
At least we're on the same page; that's an accomplishment. And perhaps I posted something that you find interesting, but after that everything is up in the air. It doesn't seem to me that you are interpreting the White Aries illustration in any way that is similar to what I suggested - through the use of traditional armorial and ecclesiastical, heraldic elements represented in the illustration. Instead you have gone off on some astronomical track, that I do not follow as substantiated in this representation.
Where you have 'Cassiop', I could have argued that the label said 'Ottobuono', for that is the identity of the historical person that armorial and church heraldry, plus other factors, have depicted. History is clear about the Fieschi involvement in the tradition of the red galero. The illustration is clear, but I make no claim to understand the language - if there is one.
In your interpretation the 'translated' words Triangle, Perseus and Lynceus all come from VMs labels that start with the same two glyphs. How is this supposed to come about? EVA 'o' has so many possible equivalents in the cipher disk - as do all the most used symbols. With each VMs Glyph now converted to a set of letter equivalents, translation (as I understand it) now occurs by taking a letter equivalent from each set in sequence with the intention of forming a recognizable word.
Even if we are to accept all the assumptions that this is based on Alberti's cipher disk, starting from a specific setting, and using the same specific sequence of letters in the inner ring, how are we to know the difference between words the author intended and words that just crop up because the sample size in each set of letter equivalents is large enough to contain these various interpretations by chance? Even if letters in a sequence are random, some sequences will be words. Here you are intentionally choosing to make words.
In my view this requires too many assumptions and may be too far removed from the VMs itself. We have to work with what the VMs gives us. As I see it, the VMs gives us two things that may help to understand the language. The first is on White Aries and uses historical grounding to indicate the significance of the marked passages in the circular bands of text. The second thing is the Four by Seventeen symbol sequence of f57v. With these two things, we may have what we need to start to understand VMs language. We have both the object, in the circular band of text. and the method, in the workings of the symbol sequence. The problem is to discover how these two innate parts will work together. And it is an area where a collaborative approach might be beneficial in stimulating ideas and in building a solution with a consensus base. -
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one!
coded > 12-05-2017, 12:48 AM
@R-Sale You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:In your interpretation the 'translated' words Triangle, Perseus and Lynceus all come from VMs labels that start with the same two glyphs. How is this supposed to come about? EVA 'o' has so many possible equivalents in the cipher disk - as do all the most used symbols. With each VMs Glyph now converted to a set of letter equivalents, translation (as I understand it) now occurs by taking a letter equivalent from each set in sequence with the intention of forming a recognizable word.
The stars held by the tub images must be constellations viewed from the, "Aries rising out of Jupiter" July 1 1466 and the vord okody for Jupiter, "Ditis" is listed 16 times in the cosmology section of the VMS!
@ R-Sale Your quote right below here is about the Tubs and celestial objects right or did I not understand? Or were suggesting the papacy were represented by the tubs?
Numerous members of the Catholic ecclesiastical hierarchy would certainly have the potential to posit this identification and immediately see that the characters are in their proper hierarchical places in the celestial spheres shown in the illustration
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I believe I was to quick to set some of the constellations to modern English so here in the below image are the Latin equivalents which I believe the VMS is in. Frankly I was excited by this find and in haste I put in some English. I have to ask you then R-sale if the VMS support Zipf's law and there is somewhat order to it and it has been referred to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. then why not Latin? The Author's intention was to hide this document deeply so he set multiple glyph equivalents for single Latin letters. Word frequency analysis with the VMS vords and Latin words is all we have to form a Latin vord.
The 9 letter vord You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is unsual for its length in the VMS and its a match for white Aries Giraffe constellation.
Cassiop columns represented in this image for her throne!
![[Image: pillar-cassiop-throne.jpg?w=685]](https://voynichalberticipher.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/pillar-cassiop-throne.jpg?w=685)
![[Image: cepheus-draco-and-milky-way-1-baxb36.jpg?w=685]](https://voynichalberticipher.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/cepheus-draco-and-milky-way-1-baxb36.jpg?w=685)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Bare Chest Like in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for my designation
![[Image: trigoni.png]](https://voynichalberticipher.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/trigoni.png)
Trigoni, Latin for Triangle in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
![[Image: konstellations162.png]](https://voynichalberticipher.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/konstellations162.png)
![[Image: jupiter-rising-out-of-aries1.png]](https://voynichalberticipher.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/jupiter-rising-out-of-aries1.png)
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RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one!
Koen G > 12-05-2017, 06:27 AM
Stellar, pleeeeease realize that this cipher has just the same problem as your previous one. It allows for so much freedom that YOU entirely decide what a page will be about. This is not how it works at all.
Many of the constellations you include above are modern ones. For example:
"Camelopardalis You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or the Giraffe You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a large, faint grouping of stars in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The constellation was introduced in 1612 (or 1613) by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.."
And then when I tell you this is impossible, you just shrug it off and look for some other word that fits. This is not how reading a text works. The text tells the reader what it's about, not the other way around.
If enough people told you the Voynich is about the American Civil War, your cipher would allow you to make it about the civil war. Do you see how this is highly problematic? -
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one!
coded > 12-05-2017, 07:24 AM
(12-05-2017, 06:27 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stellar, pleeeeease realize that this cipher has just the same problem as your previous one. It allows for so much freedom that YOU entirely decide what a page will be about. This is not how it works at all.
Let us not forget the planet did not have light pollution from electricity at night to affect star gazing back then in the 15th century.
Many of the constellations you include above are modern ones. For example:
"Camelopardalis You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or the Giraffe You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a large, faint grouping of stars in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The constellation was introduced in 1612 (or 1613) by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.."
And then when I tell you this is impossible, you just shrug it off and look for some other word that fits. This is not how reading a text works. The text tells the reader what it's about, not the other way around.
If enough people told you the Voynich is about the American Civil War, your cipher would allow you to make it about the civil war. Do you see how this is highly problematic?
@Koen
This a debate forum about the Voynich Koen and I know what this is and the word for the constellation has ancient etymology !!!!!!!!!!!!! This is a part of history so get your facts right please.
The encyclopedist Vincent de Beauvais, in his Speculum Naturale (1225), described it under three different names (anabulla, camelopardo, and orasius), apparently without realizing it. Albertus Magnus repeated the mistake in his thirteenth-century De Animalibus, using anabula, camelopardulus, and oraflus. Anabula probably comes from the Ethiopians, who called it nabin; and orafle was used in Old French. In Afrikaans it is called kameelperd. and in Zulu indlulamethi. But my personal favorite is the Swahili word twiga—which sounds the way a giraffe looks. [You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Lynn Sherr, p.19.]
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Book xv. deals with astronomy: the moon, the stars, the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., the sun, the planets, the seasons and the calendar.
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RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one!
-JKP- > 12-05-2017, 07:38 AM
The etymology of the word "giraffe" is not the same as the date at which the word was associated with a specific constellation. -
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one!
coded > 12-05-2017, 07:54 AM
(12-05-2017, 07:38 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The etymology of the word "giraffe" is not the same as the date at which the word was associated with a specific constellation.
@JKP
This guy was there back in time and you JKP are in the present; therefore I'll take this guy's ideas for the constellation camelopar then yours or Koen's.
Miniature of Vincent of Beauvais in a manuscript of the Speculum Historiale, translated into French by Jean de Vignay, Bruges, c. 1478-1480, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Royal 14 E. i, vol. 1, f. 3
![[Image: Vincent_de_Beauvais.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Vincent_de_Beauvais.jpg)
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RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one!
-JKP- > 12-05-2017, 08:37 AM
Well, I just read Beauvais' definition and it has nothing to do with constellations. It's a description of a giraffe.
Beauvais was an encyclopedist, not an astronomer, and he did not associate his definition of a giraffe with any constellations.
Description of a giraffe by Vincent de Beauvais:
"Camelopardus est dictus ex quo, cum sit ut pardus albis maculis super aspersus; collo equo similis; pedibus bubalis; capite tamen camelo similaris est. Hunc Ethiopia gignit."
And comments about it:
Le reste de la description est copié mot a mot sur celle de Pline. [The rest of the description is copied word-for-word from Piny.]
Enfin, dans le chapire 97 du livre XIX, l'auteur de Speculum naturale donne du Camelopardalis une description plus exacte et plus étendue que les deux premieres. Il le nomme cette fois Orasius.
[Later... he calls the giraffe by the name "Orasius".]
No mention of constellations. You owe Koen an apology. -
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one!
coded > 12-05-2017, 01:37 PM
(12-05-2017, 08:37 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well, I just read Beauvais' definition and it has nothing to do with constellations. It's a description of a giraffe.
@Jkp
Beauvais was an encyclopedist, not an astronomer, and he did not associate his definition of a giraffe with any constellations.
Description of a giraffe by Vincent de Beauvais:
"Camelopardus est dictus ex quo, cum sit ut pardus albis maculis super aspersus; collo equo similis; pedibus bubalis; capite tamen camelo similaris est. Hunc Ethiopia gignit."
And comments about it:
Le reste de la description est copié mot a mot sur celle de Pline. [The rest of the description is copied word-for-word from Piny.]
Enfin, dans le chapire 97 du livre XIX, l'auteur de Speculum naturale donne du Camelopardalis une description plus exacte et plus étendue que les deux premieres. Il le nomme cette fois Orasius.
[Later... he calls the giraffe by the name "Orasius".]
No mention of constellations. You owe Koen an apology.
Quote:Villa d’Este was one of many ideas, and I’m keeping it on the table, but it post-dates the VMS by more than a century, and information on its predecessors is scanty. Also, I subsequently found a location that MIGHT explain the rosettes page better than Villa d’Este, a location that better fits the compass points. It doesn’t have extensive waterworks, but it did have piped water and nearby natural waters, and some of the other features on the rosettes. Unfortunately, I can’t spare time to describe it today. It will have to wait for another blog.
J.K. Petersen
© Copyright 2017 J.K. Petersen, All Rights Reserved
Posted You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
But why did you post it so late after giving me so much grief about what I found on the House of Este? I would not say 1466 is a century away from what the VMS is!
I like the site JKP maybe you are leaning towards D'este and the VMS!
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![[Image: leo-minor.png]](https://voynichalberticipher.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/leo-minor.png)
![[Image: green-comet.png]](https://voynichalberticipher.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/green-comet.png)
![[Image: lacerta.png]](https://voynichalberticipher.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/lacerta.png)