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• RE: Scorpios

  Aga Tentakulus > 01-01-2026, 08:17 AM

  The English wiki page is somewhat more detailed.
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• RE: Scorpios

  Rafal > 01-01-2026, 02:01 PM

  Quote:Saint George fighting the dragon.
  A joke by the monks.

  
  Not the dragon. The knight in the picture is really fighting a snail.
  It may seem very weird but it's a real trope, more common than you would think:
  
  See: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  

• RE: Scorpios

  Aga Tentakulus > 01-01-2026, 03:18 PM

  That's the joke.
  Lindworm means dragon, but also snail.
  It also means snake.
  The knight fights against the lindworm. Dragon/snail.

• RE: Scorpios

  Koen G > 01-01-2026, 04:12 PM

  (31-12-2025, 08:32 PM)PeteClifford Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can’t believe any of the artists who drew these weird “scorpions” had ever seen an actual scorpion! The scribe responsible for the Voynich scorpion seems to have had one described to him/her, and knew it has a long tail that curves back on itself, but nobody seems to have mentioned how many legs it possesses!
  
  And that in itself could be a clue perhaps? I'm not a naturalist/arachnologist, but I think I'm right in saying that (barring a few pockets of invasive species which are comparatively recent) their natural range in Europe extends as far north as Northern Italy and Switzerland, but no further. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  The thing with Zodiac signs is that they follow traditional depictions. So the scribe doesn't have to go out in nature or rely on his memory to draw the creature. He just needs access to a zodiac sequence (very common in all kinds of sources, including public spaces like churches) and copy or adapt it from there. I think it's likely that these more reptilian Scorpio images are more or less related and based on other deviant imagery.
  
  The natural range of the animal may not be too relevant there. For example, bulls are extremely common beings in medieval Europe, but the Voynich artist draws it like a long-horned horse with a long, upright neck. This is based on imagery rather than nature, as if the two worlds are parallel to one another. We talked a bit about the bulls here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  So I'd say in some manuscripts, the scorpion became a weird creature, and some copyists went along with that.
  
  What I can't quite explain is the considerable variation in these very weird Scorpios

• RE: Scorpios

  Stefan Wirtz_2 > 01-01-2026, 04:15 PM

  (31-12-2025, 10:40 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is indeed a dragon.
  In the constellation, either Scorpio or Serpens.
  Serpens means lintworm, and lintworm also means dragon.
  No constellation can exist without the stars of the other.
  [..]

  
  Interesting thread, did not see that before.
  The cited answer hits it quite, this here may be a key:
  
  
  But I think it shows Heracles, Scorpius and Serpentarius, not a single "zodiac" sign.
  
  These constellations are indeed neighbours:
  (63/MS-724)
  
  
  Another representation:
  (Harley MS 1585 f017)
  
  
  Of course, most interesting those zodiacs where Scorpio is replaced by Serpens/Dragon:
  (Hunterian Psalter)
  
  
  
  Coming here with a two-legged dragon having another head on his tail tip.
  
  Within oriental zodiacs, this "serpent tail" is combined with the following zodiac Sagittarius:
  
  
  
  
  
  So there is a wide spread of non-scorpion users at the Scorpius zodiac position:
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  This last one combines the old and more eastern understanding of Capricorn with a fishtail, Sagittarius as centaur and the "Scorpius" being a dragon with another head on it's tail.
  And as you can see, there is no "italian"/alpine influence at all.
  
  Showing some dragon/reptile at the Scorpius position in zodiacs may have one of the following or both reasons:
  
  a) the draft derives from a culture where scorpions were nearly unknown to people and "dragons" considered as the more harmful species, eve if no one ever saw a dragon as well
  b) the Serpentarius was the astrologically and/or astronomically more important star constellation and made it's way into the public understanding of the skies
  
  In total, there are very few representations of Scorpius not shown by a rather precise picture of scorpions among those cultures who actually knew scorpions as a part of their life. 
  Barely discussed, but most important, this excludes the dragon zodiac in the VMS from being of any italian or "alpine" origin, since scorpions are spread around the Mediterranian as well as at the east coast of Black Sea. 
  And the understanding of Serpens/lindworm/dragon is obviously more located from England to northern East Europe, than in Germany: at least I never heared about some Bavarian idea of Scorpius being a reptile...

• RE: Scorpios

  R. Sale > 01-01-2026, 06:05 PM

  Is the knight fighting the snail really Saint George, or just a generic knight? Saint George is generally depicted on a horse and often carries a shield with a cross. <Argent, a cross gules>
  
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• RE: Scorpios

  Aga Tentakulus > 01-01-2026, 07:15 PM

  The fact that both stars are valid has something to do with the two circles overlapping here. Green and orange.
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• RE: Scorpios

  Stefan Wirtz_2 > 01-01-2026, 10:57 PM

  (01-01-2026, 07:15 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The fact that both stars are valid has something to do with the two circles overlapping here. Green and orange.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  There is an explanation folio in the same book, several pages before:
  
  
  
  The original text reaches back to ancient Caesarian times, but this here seems to be the printed version of 1474, which means the illustrations may not be trend-setting, but following a trend or fashion of that time.
  The text opens with "ophiucus" (Ophiuchus) aka serpentarius and does not mention Scorpius / scorpion in the first line, this will come from the original Latin text version, maybe the scorpion was intertwined with the snakeholder figure to link him with the "modern" understanding of that zodiac, as the Latin source was some 1,000 years older, in relation to 15th centrury.
  
  

  Aga Tentakulus Wrote:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  This second image seems to skip "Libra", but shows a standard scorpion:
  
  
  
  I don't quite get it here, or the relevance of this folio now. But in the center seems to be the combination of Ursa maior, Ursa minor and Serpens/Drago.

• RE: Scorpios

  ReneZ > 02-01-2026, 12:05 AM

  (01-01-2026, 10:57 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The text opens with "ophiucus" (Ophiuchus) aka serpentarius and does not mention Scorpius / scorpion in the first line, this will come from the original Latin text version, maybe the scorpion was intertwined with the snakeholder figure to link him with the "modern" understanding of that zodiac,

  
  In the night sky, the constellations of the snake (Serpens) and the snake holder (Ophiuchus) are directly above the constellation Scorpius.

• RE: Scorpios

  Stefan Wirtz_2 > 03-01-2026, 02:20 PM

  (02-01-2026, 12:05 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the night sky, the constellations of the snake (Serpens) and the snake holder (Ophiuchus) are directly above the constellation Scorpius.

  Fine, and Gemini is next to Cancer.
  Both facts are no explanations, why most Zodiacs show a scorpion at Scorpius position, but some Zodiacs use all kinds of dragons instead, between Libra and Sagittarius. 
  This may have a more cultural background, rooting back in ancient Greek or Greek-influenced understanding of Ophiouchos being the more relevant constellation here.
  Transferred by the Romans to Britain/Bretagne, where the „dragon“ survived, and spreaded to Byzantine/Slavic circles also.
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