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The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

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• The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  nablator > 08-10-2018, 04:21 PM

  (08-10-2018, 02:15 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What the devil is that for? And how are the pincers supposed to close with just one bit of rope?  

  With or without a pulley, they were used in construction since Roman times as described by Vitruvius:
  "Ad rechamum autem imum ferrei forfices religantur, quorum dentes in saxa forata accommodantur."
  
  But why would nymphs be associated with heavy lifting?

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  Linda > 03-09-2019, 09:50 PM

  Further to my input on page 1 of this thread, i still think it is the case that the instrument is meant to indicate scale, and the poke in the eye means the scale is line of sight. 
  
  Furthermore, that it applies to all blue painted bodies of water in the quire. This is because with the page ordering of my interpretation, this is the first blue body of water that comes up. The rest of the blue bodies of water are generally same size or smaller. 
  
  This includes f75v which shows both blue and green for the top body, it is salt water but only fresh goes in. This leaves only a few green bodies that are not the same scale as the rest.
  
  Therefore i think the blue paint versus green paint difference is even more telling than salt versus fresh water, it also indicates scale via this instrument and eyesight indication.

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  Linda > 02-09-2020, 09:27 AM

  It occurred to me to measure the distance of line of sight, because the presence of the calipers suggests there is something to measure. What would it be? Well, it is touching the shore of the water body. So i suggest it is giving dimensions thereof.
  
  Evidently, approx 5km is the furthest distance a human can see another human at sea level. 
  
  So, i hypothesize that this is 5km, from the nymph's foot on the rock, to the other nymph's eye. Of course you could just measure the arm, but i think the foot is important, meaning one should be at a lookout point, and the poke in the eye is important, as this is the line of sight idea that gets us the 5km distance. The height could also make a difference in the length measurement, but bear with me while i explore the idea. Here is 10 of these measurements.
  
  [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]                                         [/font]
  [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]     [/font][/font]
  
  [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Darn, it didn't work out visually as i had hoped. [/font][/font]
  
  [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Well, just imagine that the spaces equal to the other two on the next line, if you are seeing same as me, plus maybe there is room for a bit more to match up with the length of the water body. What [/font][/font]I am trying to point out is that attempting this measurement approximates the length of of the body of water in reality. 10x5km is 50km, Lake Garda is 51.9km. Being that it is one of the largest lakes, there are not that many that could be confused with it, not to mention its shape.
  
  Another approximation, then. Lake Garda is approx 3km wide in the northern section. Let us compare this with the measuring fragment.
  
     
     
  
  Ah, i can make it work and not work. Maybe the fragment needs to be cut more toward the other side of the rock and foot, then they would be eye to eye. Each eye is one, arm is three, which matches the width. Not sure how that would affect the 10x measurement. I don't have a functioning image editor at the moment that will do what i want in order to find out.  However it is close enough for me to feel like the idea has validity. 
  
  This goes in conjunction with being able to see each other. The locations in question would be Riva del Garda, and Malcesine. The latter has a deeper history, seemingly reflected in the imagery, as the castle is built upon the remains of others from centuries past, and is analagous to the rubble around the broken legs of the nymph. The tranparency of the well she stands in means that the port is unprotected, in this case the castle stands on a promontory of sorts.
  
  You can see Riva from Malcesine.
  
  
  
  You can't see Malcesine from the northwest corner at the shore, mountain gets in the way, and or it is too far.
  
  
  
  It can be seen from just south of the northwest corner, at that mountain that is in the way, as the foot on the stone suggests.
  
  

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  Koen G > 20-12-2020, 12:47 AM

  Could it be a pair of ribs? Like from a person or animal?

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  MichelleL11 > 20-12-2020, 03:00 AM

  (20-12-2020, 12:47 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Could it be a pair of ribs? Like from a person or animal?

  
  Well, if it's meant to be accurate, which is, I admit, a big stretch -- it doesn't seem to be very reminiscent to me.  In particular, the vertebra part, which would be a circular shape that should be seen underneath the (very bizarrely drawn, admittedly) hand, seems to be entirely missing, so how exactly the two pieces would be connected is a bit mysterious.  But if that weird hand represents the ability of the author to draw physiology -- then, well, maybe, okay.  It is difficult to definitely rule out or rule in, in my opinion.
  
         
  
  Of course, this comment sent me down a rabbit hole of the whole 12 ribs and the biblical basis of less in men than women because of the use of one (not a pair, at least that I can see) of Adam's in order to create Eve.
  
  This was controversially actively challenged by Andreas Versalius in his 1543, De Humani Corporis Fabrica Libri Septem (On the Fabric of the Human Body), which definitely said both men and woman have 12 pairs.  So if you're aiming in that direction, timing is okay, but there are a few issues.  Nevertheless, I provide two images of rib cages and individual ribs from Versalius, merely because they are cool to look at.
  
         

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  Koen G > 20-12-2020, 02:13 PM

  Yeah, I don't think anything in the VM is meant to be anatomically accurate 
  Both nymphs in this pair appear to have several dislocated joints, and the one on the left has her left shoulder connect to the middle of her torso. While the shoulder closest to us connects immediately to the back of the head (who needs necks, right).
  
  But it pleases me greatly that you immediately think about Eve. You know I like stories. What are some significant events in Eve's story?
  
  It starts in Genesis 2, when the "Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man." In this primal, innocent state, "Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame".
  
  In Genesis 3, the serpent, "more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made", convinced Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. (The bible does not specify which type of fruit). "She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves."
  
  They then hide from God, who walks the garden. They tell God that they were hiding because they were naked, which gives away the fact that they partook in forbidden knowledge. God then makes clothes for Adam and his wife. They are banished from the garden and must now suffer a less pleasant life.
  
  So in short for Eve's story:
  - Made of rib
  - Tricked by serpent
  - Ate forbidden fruit and gave it also to Adam
  - Ashamed of nakedness
  - Clothed and banished from Garden
  
  Now I won't say that Eve's story is worked into this folio, it doesn't quite match up and would bring a boatload of problems. But in a kaleidoscopic way, a surprising number of elements are present on this same page.
  
     
  Source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Often, when Adam and Eve are expelled from the Garden, this is done by an angel in military garb. Adam gets a shovel or a hoe, signifying that he now has to work for his food. Similarly, Eve traditionally gets spinning tools, since she will have to do her job as well.
  
  Note that some of the nymphs on this page are strangely clothed, while all others in Q13 are naked (apart from the sleeping/dead nymph who has some kind of blanket or shroud). This coincides with Eve becoming ashamed of her nakedness.
  
  Edit: making the above image, I also noticed a similarity in texture between Eve's hairy garment and whatever our nymph is wearing. ("The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.")
  
  Now where is that serpent?

• RE: The nimph with tongs? pincers? (f80r)

  RenegadeHealer > 20-12-2020, 05:40 PM

  Nice one, Michelle. I love historical medical reference books. I remember before cutting apart a cadaver at the very beginning of Anatomy and Physiology, our professor showed us a slideshow of historical anatomy atlases from around the world, some of them manuscripts composed centuries ago. I remember him saying it's not hard to tell which ones were composed by people who had really cut apart a human body and had a good look (and other sensory experiences) at what's inside, as opposed to ones were composed by authors who were little more than copyists and compilers, and who relied on others to do that dirtywork.
  
  If that's rib VII attached to vertebra T7, then the natural movement of that set of bones is quite unlike that of tongs, calipers, or compasses. Rib VII is one of the so-called "bucket handle ribs", and the movement on inhalation involves each of the ribs tilting up and out of the screen, like lifting the handle on the side of a bucket, rotating about an axis that looks vertical to us. They never pinch closer together, or rotate about an axis going into the screen at the vertebra. I also have never encountered a disarticulated singular thoracic segment like this, except as an anatomical exemplar like your pic.
  
  I went down a slightly different rabbit hole, MichelleL11, looking for any historical or etymological connection between clippers / calipers / tongs / pincers, and single thoracic segments of animal bones, to see if one might have served as the prototype for the other, or inspired the invention of the other. Alas, other than the superficial similarity in appearance, I could find no deep connection.
  
  However, as I'm sure Koen and R. Sale would agree, an image ambiguating between 2+ seemingly unrelated or cryptically related things at once — seems much more consistent with the VMs than a visual metaphor combining two clearly connected things, to say nothing of an image that's wholly unambiguous.
  
  Speaking of which Koen, I spent a few minutes staring at Q13 seeing if I could come up with a good possible candidate image for the Serpent. So far no epiphanies, nor even any apophanies. You'll be the first to know if I change my mind on this.
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