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Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r
- Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r
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RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r
stellar > 16-12-2016, 10:06 PM
(16-12-2016, 09:53 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(16-12-2016, 09:39 PM)bunny Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't mean a humanistic approach, what is logically expected, it's an interpretation of a poetical translation.
Whatever the records or accepted views are, the poem suggests 1903 it was moved to the Vatican.
Bunny
Bunny, did you look at the method for deriving the words? Did you read the previous posts in the thread explaining the number of possible interpretations for just the first three words (about 12,500)?
The first three columns of words are only about 600 of them and if you use logic and sentence structure then you arrive at a proper paragraph of sentence or phrase. -
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r
bunny > 16-12-2016, 11:07 PM
(16-12-2016, 10:06 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
JKP,(16-12-2016, 09:53 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(16-12-2016, 09:39 PM)bunny Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't mean a humanistic approach, what is logically expected, it's an interpretation of a poetical translation.
Whatever the records or accepted views are, the poem suggests 1903 it was moved to the Vatican.
Bunny
Bunny, did you look at the method for deriving the words? Did you read the previous posts in the thread explaining the number of possible interpretations for just the first three words (about 12,500)?
The first three columns of words are only about 600 of them and if you use logic and sentence structure then you arrive at a proper paragraph of sentence or phrase.
There are of course many possible alternatives, usually from a group limited by the process, but I do get where the method is coming from and understand that many alternatives are often not even contenders. It is more a process of interpretation and pulling out the needle from the haystack, fitting together like a jigsaw. You may say one could pull out any combination or pure junk nut these methods have revealed results that have substance and relevance. The pulling out the needle is not going to be your standard academic approach and I'm sure many standard translation attempts to crack the text are in progress, this is a slightly different line of methodology.
Bunny -
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r
Witch Mountain > 17-12-2016, 02:17 AM
(16-12-2016, 01:17 PM)bunny Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(14-12-2016, 09:14 AM)Witch Mountain Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Dear friends, it is also worth noting that "Italy hast fame" is ungrammatical in any time period - it is subject-verb agreement error:
I have (1st person)
Thou hast (2nd person)
He/she/it has or hath (3rd person)
"Italy" would be 3rd person (the country is an "it") but here it is linked with "hast", which is 2nd person.
On the contrary countries were not always "it" and designated a gender, mother Russia, La France, Britannia, Possibly USA via "lady Columbia" (or more recently Uncle Sam), mother India etc. Germany and Wales etc. Fatherland in terms of "land of our fathers", but also motherland of native land may be used interchangeably. Fatherland used in many European/latin origin countries, some Nordic, African and Pakistan also. Places like Sweden, genderless. He/she/it are all 3rd person, but if the author directly addressing the country rather than about it then having a gender, and a more intimate sense of identity and connection to the land, then referring in the 2nd person as "you" rather than "it" is not out of place and poetical.
"Italia" - female, 2nd person, motherland, intimate connection - hast."
Reworded in a clearer expanded manner:
"Italy (Italia) my motherland, thou hast fame..."
Italia, la mia patria, tu hai la fama
Neither ungrammatical, 2nd person feminine - nor so out of place in a not so modern world. In fact it just strengthens the translation as poetical and archaic.
Bunny
Thank you for the reply dear bunny. If you want to give Italy any grammatical gender (male, female, neuter) and any level of formality (formal, informal, intimate) I am fine with all that. But the grammatical person (1st 2nd 3rd) is a different matter. In this sentence, it seems clear he is talking about Italy, and its "banking line" (whatever that is). There is nothing to suggest that the speaker is talking to Italy, and if he was it would be very odd in Western European languages (cf. "England are great"). -
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r
ReneZ > 17-12-2016, 09:44 AM
(16-12-2016, 04:53 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(16-12-2016, 02:40 PM)bunny Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[...]
Voynich was a Jew.
[...]
To convince people that the Vatican Christian stronghold was willing to sell part of its library to W. Voynich, you will have to come up with examples of other similar transactions during that time period.
[...]
That Voynich was Jewish is one of these incorrect statements that tend to get propagated in some of the literature, and are hard to eradicate.
Voynich was Christian, or, in his own words: "Cassolic and Agnostic". This is a first hand report from E. Millicent Sowerby,
"Rare People and Rare Books, London: Constable, 1967". I show a very short excerpt in the understanding that this falls under fair use.
Arnold Hunt quotes this reference in his recent essay, but I am not sure if he also repeats this statement. The chapter by Millicent Sowerby is a fascinating view into the life of Voynich in the years 1912-1914.
He was buried at the Catholic Gate of Heaven cemetary in Hawthorne (N.Y.). More information about that may be found at the excellent You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
His general acquisition of about 30 books that included the Voynich MS is sufficiently documented, though uncertainties remain about some of the more interesting details. -
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r
bunny > 17-12-2016, 10:40 AM
(17-12-2016, 02:17 AM)Witch Mountain Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote pid='9854' dateline='1481890627']
Thank you for the reply dear bunny. If you want to give Italy any grammatical gender (male, female, neuter) and any level of formality (formal, informal, intimate) I am fine with all that. But the grammatical person (1st 2nd 3rd) is a different matter. In this sentence, it seems clear he is talking about Italy, and its "banking line" (whatever that is). There is nothing to suggest that the speaker is talking to Italy, and if he was it would be very odd in Western European languages (cf. "England are great").
[/quote]
I know you say you are just here for entertainment but I'll go into a bit more of an explanation though may remain as clear as mud. The banking line is House Medici, Medici at the time WAS Italy, Medici was famous and gave fame to Italy, particularly Florence. House Medici were famous and powerful and illuminated ones and have come up in relation to the manuscript. Italy/Medici was being addressed, in person and as a motherland (of the Medici, Dante and the manuscript). The exclusion of "thou" is not usual and odd but the information is factual. I can't give a reason for writing style maybe to be dramatic, compact or draw attention, that will have to remain undecided, but I will go with factual content is good enough for me.
Medici, Italy (thou) hast fame.
Why the thou/you left out may just be stylistic, but is less of an issue than the factual substance of the translation. I expect a lot more factual content to come from Stellar, maybe not found or presented in a traditional manner, but then I'm comparing content of people's findings.
You may want to lie down for a bit now. I am sorry it's not the standard academic line I have taken.
Bunny -
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r
-JKP- > 17-12-2016, 11:40 AM
(17-12-2016, 09:44 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That Voynich was Jewish is one of these incorrect statements that tend to get propagated in some of the literature, and are hard to eradicate.
Voynich was Christian, or, in his own words: "Cassolic and Agnostic". This is a first hand report from E. Millicent Sowerby,
"Rare People and Rare Books, London: Constable, 1967". I show a very short excerpt in the understanding that this falls under fair use.
Arnold Hunt quotes this reference in his recent essay, but I am not sure if he also repeats this statement. The chapter by Millicent Sowerby is a fascinating view into the life of Voynich in the years 1912-1914.
He was buried at the Catholic Gate of Heaven cemetary in Hawthorne (N.Y.). More information about that may be found at the excellent You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
His general acquisition of about 30 books that included the Voynich MS is sufficiently documented, though uncertainties remain about some of the more interesting details.
Thanks for the correction, René. I haven't researched Voynich's biography to any extent. I wasn't aware of the information you just posted (and if it's on your site, you'll have to forgive me, I've so far only read 1/10th of the interesting information you've collected and posted).
I must have thought he was Jewish based on the assertions of a number of people and also because Yiddish was a primary language in Telšiai, the town of his birth (in Voynich's grandfather's time and at the time Wilfrid was born, the town was almost 70% Jewish). -
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r
ThomasCoon > 17-12-2016, 03:31 PM
Hey Stellar,
Thank you as always for posting your work. It must have taken a long time, as you said. That is commendable.
When you made your last hypothesis, I advised checking if your method could produce other completely unrelated (but still valid) sentences in English or other languages. This is very important to determine if your method only produces one answer (a druid, Satan, John Dee), or if it can produce dozens of things - meaning the method is loose enough to produce whatever story we want it to. This occurred with Welsh numerology: if I wanted to say the VMS was Chinese, that numerology method could actually produce a Chinese zodiac.
Let's test your current hypothesis. Here are your codes:
(16-12-2016, 02:19 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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With your gematria method I can construct an equally valid paragraph about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (something that stopped people from wanting to have sex, including sex-addicts who used it as treatment). This would've been important cure in a society where marriage was the only place for sex:
"You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (i.e. the VMS), You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
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That is just one possibility: each gematria word can produce at least 200 English words (when you allow all languages, each Gematria can produce literally a million possibilities). Here is a very small list of possibilities for the last 8 words in your image:
So, I can create any sentence from "pagan magic" to "HIV-AIDS" to a "pope scandal".
Does the VMS truly come from a druid? Above it seems that the druid is just one option among many -
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r
ThomasCoon > 17-12-2016, 03:40 PM
(16-12-2016, 10:06 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(16-12-2016, 09:53 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Bunny, did you look at the method for deriving the words? Did you read the previous posts in the thread explaining the number of possible interpretations for just the first three words (about 12,500)?
The first three columns of words are only about 600 of them and if you use logic and sentence structure then you arrive at a proper paragraph of sentence or phrase.
Sorry, I didn't add this to my post directly above, but this is also important:
Stellar and bunny - I think I've found the source of our misunderstanding. It is true that you can arrive at a proper paragraph using your methods... but there is not only one possible paragraph: these methods (numerology, gematria) produce dozens of narratives in any language, meaning there is no proof that the "Druid" narrative is more correct than any other narrative. -
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r
stellar > 17-12-2016, 05:02 PM
@Coon
Would you agree that Water Lily is probably the start of the paragraph? -
RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r
ThomasCoon > 17-12-2016, 05:33 PM
@stellar I don't think there is enough evidence because there seems to be a problem with the gematria system that produced those words. There are at least 200 other choices for "teellm" and 200 for the "ncefnek" - who is to say that the words are supposed to be "water" and "lily" ? In Gematria they could also be:
Those aren't...
Touch into...
Drip-feed two...
Touch two...
Organic pool...
Cycles exit...
Organic thing...
Bohemian German...
Bohemian pagan...
Italy embodied...
Alchemical science...
Organic science...
Those lily (petals/stems/flowers/etc)...
Those adult (plants etc)...
Water into...
Those clear...
And those are just a small number. Do you see the problem? The system is flawed - it produces whatever we want to find. The words that you turned into "Ireland" and "Druid" also have 200 equally valid other choices.