• Options
• Login
• Desktop Style

Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

• Index

  • The Voynich Ninja
  • Voynich Research
  • Analysis of the text
  • Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r
• Thread Closed
• Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  bunny > 16-12-2016, 01:17 PM

  (14-12-2016, 09:14 AM)Witch Mountain Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Dear friends, it is also worth noting that "Italy hast fame" is ungrammatical in any time period - it is subject-verb agreement error:
  
  I have (1st person)
  Thou hast (2nd person)
  He/she/it has or hath (3rd person)
  
  "Italy" would be 3rd person (the country is an "it") but here it is linked with "hast", which is 2nd person.

  
  On the contrary countries were not always "it" and designated a gender, mother Russia, La France, Britannia, Possibly USA via "lady Columbia" (or more recently Uncle Sam), mother India etc.  Germany and Wales etc. Fatherland in terms of "land of our fathers", but also motherland of native land may be used interchangeably.  Fatherland used in many European/latin origin countries, some Nordic, African and Pakistan also.  Places like Sweden, genderless.  He/she/it are all 3rd person, but if the author directly addressing the country rather than about it then having a gender, and a more intimate sense of identity and connection to the land, then referring in the 2nd person as "you" rather than "it" is not out of place and poetical.
  
  "Italia" - female, 2nd person, motherland, intimate connection - hast.  "
  
  Reworded in a clearer expanded manner:
  
  "Italy (Italia) my motherland, thou hast fame..."
  
                                         Italia, la mia patria, tu hai la fama
  
  Neither ungrammatical, 2nd person feminine - nor so out of place in a not so modern world.  In fact it just strengthens the translation as poetical and archaic.
  
  Bunny

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  Koen G > 16-12-2016, 01:31 PM

  Bunny, the sentence "Italy hast fame" is ungrammatical because Italy, no matter the perceived gender, is third person. The verb form hast demands a second person, and in onder to express a second person you absolutely need the word "you", or "thou" in this case.
  
  Note that in your example sentences, which are grammatical, the pronouns "tu" and "thou" are present. You seem to argue that "Italy, thou hast fame" is a correct shortened sentence, but even for those there are certain restrictions. For example, you can say:
  
  "Brushed my teeth; went to store, slept, woke up." 
  
  Those sentences are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but you cannot just do that at random. You cannot omit the second person pronoun, that's just ungrammatical in every possible way.

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  bunny > 16-12-2016, 02:40 PM

  (16-12-2016, 01:31 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Bunny, the sentence "Italy hast fame" is ungrammatical because Italy, no matter the perceived gender, is third person. The verb form hast demands a second person, and in onder to express a second person you absolutely need the word "you", or "thou" in this case.
  
  Note that in your example sentences, which are grammatical, the pronouns "tu" and "thou" are present. You seem to argue that "Italy, thou hast fame" is a correct shortened sentence, but even for those there are certain restrictions. For example, you can say:
  
  "Brushed my teeth; went to store, slept, woke up." 
  
  Those sentences are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but you cannot just do that at random. You cannot omit the second person pronoun, that's just ungrammatical in every possible way.

  The example was an extended one to clarify what I was saying. Shortened form below.
  
                                                          "Italia hai fama"
  
  The thrust was to clarify genders given to countries demonstrate the same sense of intimacy and reference as to a person, as "you" rather than "it".  Yes, in a way the same as your brushed teeth example, a compact, information containing form not unlike Haiku.  Understand that I'm not saying this translation is THE ONE correct translation for that text as I don't think a single translation is the solution, rather it is a piece of a layered puzzle in a given language key, of which there are many. 
  
  Now to really peek at the cat in the box (and please observe this is MY interpretation, so blame me not Stellar for this following interpretation). Stellar's translation points to the VM being moved to the Vatican, in Rome, in 1903, implying Voynich's 1912 Italian castle story has more holes than Swiss cheese, as suspected.  While it may be that Voynich obtained the manuscript in 1912, he had dealings in Florence since 1908 if not earlier, and the 1912 date is not watertight.  He also may have got it directly from the Vatican (order and city), and not the suspected Villa Mondragone from the Jesuits in secret before it entered the Vatican library.  The crux being the translation suggests it was relocated (and not just part of a future slow moving purchase of manuscripts) in Italy in 1903 and the Vatican was the purchaser and told physical custody of it in 1903 in Vatican city.
  
  This of course is not found in any resource so it cannot be confirmed, but is something I will follow up if ever possible.  Bear in mind this data is from a speculated ungrammatical, elliptical, wrong? translation of the Voynich text.  It would be interesting to see if it ever turns out to be correct data.
  
  Bunny

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  -JKP- > 16-12-2016, 04:53 PM

  (16-12-2016, 02:40 PM)bunny Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The example was an extended one to clarify what I was saying. Shortened form below.
  
                                                          "Italia hai fama"
  
  
  The shortened form has different gematria values and thus wouldn't fit the same text.
  
  
  
  [deleted for brevity}...he had dealings in Florence since 1908 if not earlier, and the 1912 date is not watertight.  He also may have got it directly from the Vatican (order and city), and not the suspected Villa Mondragone from the Jesuits in secret before it entered the Vatican library.  The crux being the translation suggests it was relocated (and not just part of a future slow moving purchase of manuscripts) in Italy in 1903 and the Vatican was the purchaser and told physical custody of it in 1903 in Vatican city.
  
  This of course is not found in any resource so it cannot be confirmed, but is something I will follow up if ever possible.  Bear in mind this data is from a speculated ungrammatical, elliptical, wrong? translation of the Voynich text.  It would be interesting to see if it ever turns out to be correct data.
  
  Bunny
  
  
  The Vatican has traditionally been very reluctant to give up its treasures and has only recently begun giving access to "outsiders" and even this access was limited until the inception of the Vatican digitization project. Voynich was a Jew. The Vatican Catholic stronghold was probably not eager to do commerce with Jewish bookselling speculators in the early 1900s, a period when Jews were being expelled from Russia, Germany, the Ukraine, and other areas.
  
  
  To convince people that the Vatican Christian stronghold was willing to sell part of its library to W. Voynich, you will have to come up with examples of other similar transactions during that time period.

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  Linda > 16-12-2016, 06:05 PM

  (16-12-2016, 04:53 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Vatican has traditionally been very reluctant to give up its treasures and has only recently begun giving access to "outsiders" and even this access was limited until the inception of the Vatican digitization project. Voynich was a Jew. The Vatican Catholic stronghold was probably not eager to do commerce with Jewish bookselling speculators in the early 1900s, a period when Jews were being expelled from Russia, Germany, the Ukraine, and other areas.
  
  
  To convince people that the Vatican Christian stronghold was willing to sell part of its library to W. Voynich, you will have to come up with examples of other similar transactions during that time period.

  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  evidently the Vatican still thought they owned it in 1962. Kraus asked the librarian to go get it, came back empty.

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  Linda > 16-12-2016, 06:30 PM

  (16-12-2016, 04:53 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Vatican has traditionally been very reluctant to give up its treasures and has only recently begun giving access to "outsiders" and even this access was limited until the inception of the Vatican digitization project. Voynich was a Jew. The Vatican Catholic stronghold was probably not eager to do commerce with Jewish bookselling speculators in the early 1900s, a period when Jews were being expelled from Russia, Germany, the Ukraine, and other areas.
  
  
  To convince people that the Vatican Christian stronghold was willing to sell part of its library to W. Voynich, you will have to come up with examples of other similar transactions during that time period.

  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  evidently the Vatican still thought they owned it in 1962. Kraus asked the librarian to go get it, came back empty.

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  -JKP- > 16-12-2016, 07:35 PM

  (16-12-2016, 06:30 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  evidently the Vatican still thought they owned it in 1962. Kraus asked the librarian to go get it, came back empty.

  
  
  You bring up a good point, Linda. The Vatican thought they had taken possession of it, but there's no evidence that they actually acquired it, at least not so far.
  
  ReneZ has done a good job of documenting the manuscript's provenance. On his site, he records that a few weeks after being at the Vatican Library, in the 1960s, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that he "found out that the Cipher Manuscript comes from the library of the Collegium Romanum" (the Jesuit library). He further says that on page vii of the Ruysschaert inventory, "it is mentioned that the Cipher manuscript, together with others, was sold by the Jesuits to Voynich."
  
  
  
  I suppose one could propose that maybe it was in the Vatican Library before it came to the Jesuits, but the evidence points to Kircher (who administrated books and scientific antiquities in the Jesuit Library) receiving it through scholarly contacts in central and eastern Europe, not through the Vatican. The documents collected so far appear to support this.

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  Linda > 16-12-2016, 09:10 PM

  I agree, I think Voynich bought it just before the transfer of Kircher's lot and whatever else from the Jesuits to the Vatican. I guess the Vatican assumed the cataloguing was correct, although you'd think the mistake would have been discovered upon re-cataloguing into their own library, or at some point afterward. 50 years later seems somewhat late for this discovery, and yet it took someone else to point out the discrepancy. Another 50 years has since passed, has anyone looked at the rest of it? Loose MS pages perhaps, or clues, maybe, in other correspondence or research notes yet to be found?

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  bunny > 16-12-2016, 09:39 PM

  (16-12-2016, 09:10 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Vatican has traditionally been very reluctant to give up its treasures and has only recently begun giving access to "outsiders" and even this access was limited until the inception of the Vatican digitization project. Voynich was a Jew. The Vatican Catholic stronghold was probably not eager to do commerce with Jewish bookselling speculators in the early 1900s, a period when Jews were being expelled from Russia, Germany, the Ukraine, and other areas.

  
  I don't mean a humanistic approach, what is logically expected, it's an interpretation of a poetical translation. 
  
  Whatever the records or accepted views are, the poem suggests 1903 it was moved to the Vatican.  
  
  Bunny

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  -JKP- > 16-12-2016, 09:53 PM

  (16-12-2016, 09:39 PM)bunny Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't mean a humanistic approach, what is logically expected, it's an interpretation of a poetical translation. 
  
  Whatever the records or accepted views are, the poem suggests 1903 it was moved to the Vatican.  
  
  Bunny

  
  Bunny, did you look at the method for deriving the words? Did you read the previous posts in the thread explaining the number of possible interpretations for just the first three words (about 12,500)?
• Next Oldest Next Newest