Ah I see.
I hadn't understood that the two threads were related, it"s a great idea to correlate puffy-elbow (batwing) sleeves and dagged sleeves. It makes so much sense now, sorry I didn't get it at first!
I looked at your Tacuinum examples again, from this thread and the other one.
It seems I have to revise what I wrote above: BNF NAL 1673, which is where image n°1 in your OP is from, is actually an Italian MS from c1430. The type of dress worn in your example must be the elusive Italian dagged-sleeved cioppa.
I'm including another example from BNF NAL 1673 (f96v) below. There are others in this MS, but I chose this one because it is blue like the Voynich one. You can see that the cuts (dags?) in the sleeves are very small and discreet.
![[Image: snowballfight.png]](https://voynichviews.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/snowballfight.png)
Going back to the Tacuinum from the other thread, ÖNB Cod. Ser. n. 2644, it actually does feature dagged sleeves too, on f31v. The lady getting groped in the eggplant garden is actually wearing a pretty nice red match for the Voynich dress.
![[Image: eggplant.jpg]](https://voynichviews.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/eggplant.jpg)
These are, I think, perhaps more consistent with what we find in the Voynich: in the French versions, the cuts are deep and the dagged sleeves tend to be really droopy and almost reach the ground. In the Italian ones it's more of a moderately scalloped edge at the end of a very wide flared sleeve.
In terms of date, I really can't tell a difference between the sleeves in your n°1 example from 1430 and the one from the ONB Tacuinum 40 years prior. Both Italian examples seem to have a very similar shape/size, as well as the low cut neckline, etc... The blue dress in the 1430 one does have more discreet dags, but then it coexists with the dags in example 1, so I don't know.
I hadn't understood that the two threads were related, it"s a great idea to correlate puffy-elbow (batwing) sleeves and dagged sleeves. It makes so much sense now, sorry I didn't get it at first!
I looked at your Tacuinum examples again, from this thread and the other one.
It seems I have to revise what I wrote above: BNF NAL 1673, which is where image n°1 in your OP is from, is actually an Italian MS from c1430. The type of dress worn in your example must be the elusive Italian dagged-sleeved cioppa.
I'm including another example from BNF NAL 1673 (f96v) below. There are others in this MS, but I chose this one because it is blue like the Voynich one. You can see that the cuts (dags?) in the sleeves are very small and discreet.
Going back to the Tacuinum from the other thread, ÖNB Cod. Ser. n. 2644, it actually does feature dagged sleeves too, on f31v. The lady getting groped in the eggplant garden is actually wearing a pretty nice red match for the Voynich dress.
These are, I think, perhaps more consistent with what we find in the Voynich: in the French versions, the cuts are deep and the dagged sleeves tend to be really droopy and almost reach the ground. In the Italian ones it's more of a moderately scalloped edge at the end of a very wide flared sleeve.
In terms of date, I really can't tell a difference between the sleeves in your n°1 example from 1430 and the one from the ONB Tacuinum 40 years prior. Both Italian examples seem to have a very similar shape/size, as well as the low cut neckline, etc... The blue dress in the 1430 one does have more discreet dags, but then it coexists with the dags in example 1, so I don't know.