I think it will be clearer if we just make a separate thread for the women's sleeves. In both Virgo and Gemini you can see that the edge of the sleeves is worked somehow, and we have grown accustomed to calling this "dagging". However, there are many different forms, and the VM drawing isn't the most refined. What do you think would constitute good parallels? If we want to use this detail to determine some date range, it's important to first understand what is meant.
I collected the first bunch I could find for some examples of the variety, what do you think? Should any be preferred or excluded?
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5 looks more like a sleeveless cloak to me.
Never knew the style was called dagged! I think the name of the actual gown we're seeing here is You are not allowed to view links.
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Those are good.
This is something I haven't followed up... I only have a few and can't get my hands on them until this evening.
From memory...
BNF Français 606 (red dress, bottom right)
I think you're right, David. By the way, only now I realize 5 is a "lady with ring"
It's from
Publius Terencius Afer, Comoediae [comédies de Térence] ca. 1411; Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal, Ms-664 réserve, 235v.
JKP: I'll take your word on it
Is #4 from BL Add 1277? If so, there's another good one where she's accepting? a ring and wearing long dagged sleeves. If not, it's one to add to the list.
In the 1390 Tacuinum, she has dagged sleeves in the snowball fight, but they are not super long.
In the Limbourg Du Berry Hours, there is a man's gown with similar sleeves.
I don't have much, even though I've tried to keep my eyes open for them. You did a good job in finding so many in a short time.
I'll check my sources when I'm at the pc later today.
It was surprisingly hard to find them. There are more examples of women with some kind of pattern in their sleeves, but I left out the ones that diverged too much. Some cuts have the shape of large rectangles or even oak leaves.
Nice examples Koen Gh!
To me, the first one is perhaps the closest one, because beyond the dagged sleeve, the dress also features the round neckline and somewhat skintight bust area (example 5 has those too but I agree with davidjackson that it seems to be more like some sort of a cloak).
However,example 1 also features a different, wavy detail near the wrist. But then again I guess that is the undergarment or shirt she is wearing beneath, not the dagged sleeve dress itself.
Example 1 I know by heart since it's coming up a lot lately: tacuinum sanitatis. It's quite remarkable indeed. What it shares with the VM sleeves and to some extent example 4 is that the sleeves don't trail down to the floor, blending into the dress. Maybe it is the only true parallel for the sleeve type?
Example 3 has other things in common with Virgo, like the way the dress trails, but it's less relevant on the sleeve type.
BNF français 118 - the neck is high, and it's an overgarment, but it does have dagged sleeves:
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There is a brief popular article on the changing fashions in women's clothing over the late middle ages You are not allowed to view links.
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