The Voynich Ninja

(22-09-2016, 01:37 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you, Emma. I knew this, but it didn't hurt to have it refreshed

Let me use the proper terminology then, and redirect it back to the solution proposed in this thread:
Is it likely that the proposed language(s) does not allow k or t in the coda?

It is possible that some sounds are restricted in the coda, yes.

Marco - what I'm asking is about the solution proposed by escape. Assigning the sounds k and t to gallows has consequences. Just looking up some Aramaic words on wikipedia, I see for example: כתבת kiṯḇeṯ, I wrote. In other words, the sound t is totally allowed in the coda. 
I know for a fact that at least modern Turkish allows both k and t in the coda.
And so on...

This is a problem for the present, and indeed most, proposed solutions. That's what I'm trying to get to here.

(22-09-2016, 02:01 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco - what I'm asking is about the solution proposed by escape. Assigning the sounds k and t to gallows has consequences. Just looking up some Aramaic words on wikipedia, I see for example: כתבת kiṯḇeṯ, I wrote. In other words, the sound t is totally allowed in the coda. 
I know for a fact that at least modern Turkish allows both k and t in the coda.
And so on...

This is a problem for the present, and indeed most, proposed solutions. That's what I'm trying to get to here.

I think this discussion is indeed far more general than the handful of words discussed by escape. 
Since I think that both are interesting topics, I would have preferred to see them distinct, but never mind.

What can be observed in the VMS is that the gallows are not common suffixes. 
Their statistics at the beginning or at the middle of words seem to me comparable with those of most other glyphs. 


Also, the fact that so and so words exist in Aramaic is not significant per se. Voynichese also has a 1% of words ending in EVA -t or -k (one -otork- is included in the five labels we are discussing). What would be useful is computing and comparing language statistics.

Thanks, Emma and Koen,
It's great to see a conversation develop like this. As a non-linguist member, it's just the sort of thing which helps us non-specialists balance the for and against arguments relating to any linguistic proposition.

Emma, do you feel that the way those Turkish-Aramaean languages work come close to patterns of the Voynich text?  How many are there that you know in that group?

(22-09-2016, 02:38 PM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks, Emma and Koen,
It's great to see a conversation develop like this. As a non-linguist member, it's just the sort of thing which helps us non-specialists balance the for and against arguments relating to any linguistic proposition.

Emma, do you feel that the way Mingrelian language works conforms to the patterns of the Voynich text? Is it worth exploring further, do you think?

I can't say I know much about Mingrelian, to be honest. But like most Kartvelian languages it has a large inventory of consonants. Given that the Voynich script is relatively sparse there would be a lot of ambiguity. The syllable structure may also be wrong, but I wouldn't want to give a definite answer for that as I am lacking information.

Emma - thanks for the reply. I realised that I had been too specific and amended my own response - our messages crossed.

I should have been more general - as the initial poster was.  My fault.

Turkic and Aramaic languages aren't related, so any solution would have to be a mix of some kind. Aramaic languages are Semitic, and I doubt the language behind the Voynich text is Semitic. I wouldn't be surprised if it included words borrowed from Semitic (and Indo-European) but I don't think most of the text works the way Semitic does.

Turkic seems more likely both linguistically and historically, but I've yet to read a Turkic solution that feels half way right. The good thing is that Proto-Turkic has an inventory of sounds that could just about be shoehorned into the Voynich script. Syllables structure is also less complex, but there are still problems to overcome. Although not methodologically sound, if somebody spent time trying to figure out the Voynich text on the assumption it was Turkic, I would be interested to read the outcome.

I once wondered about a Turkic solution. The agglutinative feature of the language family resembles what we see in Voynichese:

yat-
yatmak
yatık
yatak
yatay
yatkın
yatır-
yatırmak
yatırım
yatırımcı

göz
gözlük
gözlükçü
gözlükçülük
gözle-
gözlem
gözlemci
gözlemek
gözetlemek

The only problem is that Turkic words are often 8-10 letters long while VMS words rarely get that length.

Semitic languages (like escape's Aramaic) have an "infix" feature similar to Voynichese (qokey - qokeey - qokedy - qokeody) but as Koen points out, Voynich "consonants" have a different distribution than Semitic ones.

Hello, all and especially Wladimir Dulow. I've already wrote about the 6th label ( So2ax ) - this word is translated as 'motion' and there is not clearly understanding of what meaning it carries here. W. Dulow, whether you was more attentive, you could find this translation in my short vocabulary.



The red distances is shorter than green. This proves to the people like you, that the labels are related to the closest images (fittings, tubes), i.e. right-sided from labels.

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(22-09-2016, 06:02 PM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I once wondered about a Turkic solution. The agglutinative feature of the language family resembles what we see in Voynichese:

yat-
yatmak
yatık
yatak
yatay
yatkın
yatır-
yatırmak
yatırım
yatırımcı

göz
gözlük
gözlükçü
gözlükçülük
gözle-
gözlem
gözlemci
gözlemek
gözetlemek

The only problem is that Turkic words are often 8-10 letters long while VMS words rarely get that length.

Semitic languages (like escape's Aramaic) have an "infix" feature similar to Voynichese (qokey - qokeey - qokedy - qokeody) but as Koen points out, Voynich "consonants" have a different distribution than Semitic ones.

 
The Uyghur and Uzbek word-bases finds more corellations with VM than other Turkic languages. This observation could point to a land of a Gold Horde, a [font=arial, sans-serif]native land of the all Turks - North-western Himalayan region (Xinjiang-Uyghur). And where we have a Turkey now?) Which way they had done from their homeland and through which countries? It is not a secret, that present Georgia has been divided to 2 countries - Iberia (Iveria) and Albania (Alvania). And where are this countries nowadays?)) a Spain and an Albania which is close to Italia)) And why Italians so similar to Georgians?[/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif][/font]

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And one else interesting thing. Which countries are in the place of those Iberia, Albania and Sarmatia now?

*P*ox8a2ai2ox - [ ZOŞ[font=sans-serif]ƢӘR[font=sans-serif]ӘNROŞ[/font][/font] ] - the first word in the text onto a f77r. First part is unknown, but there is a Polish word 'cosh' (ts-o-sh) with meaning 'something', '[font=arial, sans-serif]thing', '[font=arial, sans-serif]what[/font]'. The second one - is "girl's". The third one is "head".[/font]