The Voynich Ninja

(08-07-2016, 05:03 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well then would be nice if you have a look at my older posts on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia and provide feedback (or new ideas perhaps):

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Thx in advance!

I'll be happy to read them, friend! I'll PM you on Sat/Sun when I have more time

(08-07-2016, 05:03 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well then would be nice if you have a look at my older posts on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia and provide feedback (or new ideas perhaps):

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Thx in advance!

Instead of PMing you all the pictures, I'll just write what I think here, since it is easier. Here is the first link you gave me; I'm working on the second right now


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I immediately read the label near the bulbous object on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as the German word "faß" using an esszett (which Germans had in their alphabet by the 1300s) - this means a large container of some kind in German,  usually a barrel or cask containing beer, but it can refer to any sort of container or liquid-bearing vessel. The "F" explains the horizontal line over the "a":

[attachment=394]


Either way - "lab", "faß" or even "faſs" (German also had "ſ" to represent a single s), you are correct that this looks very German.

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If you're guessing that the first letter in Line 0 is a "p", that could make a lot of sense in the 15th century German dialects: "b" often shifted to "p".
I'm quoting from "A History of German" by Joe Salmons (one of the books we had to read from cover-to-cover in my Master's German linguistics class):

Quote:/b/ merges with /p/ in Upper German, consistently in Bavarian (be- = pi-, Glaube = calaupe, etc.), initially in Alemannic (bist = pist, but Glaube = kilaubu). In final position, we find merger (selp for selb)

(Salmons, Joseph. A History of German: What the Past Reveals about Today's Language. Oxford University Press, 2013: 118.)

I don't disagree with your interpretation of "pox leben/leber" and you have very good evidence to support it, so I will just offer my own view:
If you're reading the first two words in Line 0 as "pox leber", that could be the Bavarian or Alemannic form of the now-standard "Bocks Leber" (goat's liver), and the little animal on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks very much like a goat: his cloven hoof is clearly split into two parts, and he may also have curled horns.

The rest of the line is too ambiguous to pin down - a few letters are clear, but I can't propose any meaning.

Thx for your comments. I'm afraid we already wander off-topic from the "Voynich tasks", so I'll move the later posts into a separate thread shortly.

The important thing in the interpretation of the letters is that if we assume that such-and-such words are written by the same hand, then the respective characters need to be written in more or less consistent way. In other words, if you propose something to be an "f", then this character should be interpreted as "f" in other instances too. (This is a general notice, not related to your reading "faß" specifically).

As for faß - is it OK for FNHD to have "f" in the begiining of words? In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there is not a single word beginning with "f"!

Quote:If you're reading the first two words in Line 0 as "pox leber", that could be the Bavarian or Alemannic form of the now-standard "Bocks Leber" (goat's liver)

In fact, the "goat liver" interpretation has been dominant through the years of Voynich studies; what I proposed is to shift from this predominance to another interpretation, since, in my opinion, the animal does not look like a goat, neither the bulbous object - like a liver.

Quote:he rest of the line is too ambiguous to pin down - a few letters are clear, but I can't propose any meaning.

Ay, there's the rub... This could be a good object for an attack that Koen proposed, suppose that we limit the language to "German" variants.

(09-07-2016, 10:21 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As for faß - is it OK for FNHD to have "f" in the begiining of words? In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there is not a single word beginning with "f"!

Quote:If you're reading the first two words in Line 0 as "pox leber", that could be the Bavarian or Alemannic form of the now-standard "Bocks Leber" (goat's liver)

In fact, the "goat liver" interpretation has been dominant through the years of Voynich studies; what I proposed is to shift from this predominance to another interpretation, since, in my opinion, the animal does not look like a goat, neither the bulbous object - like a liver.

As for the faß: Bavarian (and I assume other German dialects) definitely had the character for "f" by 1400 A.D. - here is a picture from the Kasseler Gespräche from the 800s written in an archaic form of Bavarian. I realize the quality isn't very clear but I can't find a better one:

You can clearly see the "f" in the Latin "facio" in the 7th line, 2nd word, and many Bavarian words are written with this character also. Also, Luther's Bible is full of f-words (pun intended!) but I realize his work is considered Early New High German.


Why don't modern dictionaries have "f"? I am not 100% sure, but it may be a result of German linguists in the 1800s who tried to standardize Mittelhochdeutsch texts and rewrote them with a very artificial orthography: "vrouwen" and "vröude" instead of "frouwen" or "fröude" - but I am not completely sure about this and will have to research more.


Also, out of curiosity Anton, if you don't think the animal on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a goat, what do you think it is? I saw that you also interpret the animal's foot as a cloven hoof. I'm just curioust!

Quote:You can clearly see the "f" in the Latin "facio" in the 7th line, 2nd word, and many Bavarian words are written with this character also.

Yes, but "facio" is Latin (as you noted), and what German words are beginning with "f" there, I couldn't locate them? (The issue is not with the character "f" as such, but with words beginning with it.)

Early New High German is quite fine for the period of the VMS production.

Quote:Also, out of curiosity Anton, if you don't think the animal on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a goat, what do you think it is? I saw that you also interpret the animal's foot as a cloven hoof. I'm just curioust!

I think it's a lamb.

(09-07-2016, 11:35 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:You can clearly see the "f" in the Latin "facio" in the 7th line, 2nd word, and many Bavarian words are written with this character also.

Yes, but "facio" is Latin (as you noted), and what German words are beginning with "f" there, I couldn't locate them? (The issue is not with the character "f" as such, but with words beginning with it.)

Let me use a text closer to the date of the VMS. The Nibelungenlied was written down around the time period 1200-1250. Here is the first page of Manuscript C, and I pointed out three words with word-initial F:

[attachment=395]

I just checked my Reclam edition (2011, Mittelhochdeutsch / Neuhochdeutsch), and it confirms that the first word is "diu frowe" (die Frau) and the last word is "frumten" (Reclam translates as "vollführten")

(09-07-2016, 11:35 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it's a lamb.

This could be seen as off-topic, though if we are going to attack this page, we might as well go over the images again as well, just to have some possibilities.

The whole  goat liver thing seems a bit desperate to me. I think you are right in your interpretation of the images. Diane thinks it's a sheep as well, and she also noted that it appears to have marks across its ankles, which might indicate some form of (intentional) damage to prevent the animal from moving (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).

After that, I noticed that the "blob" is actually an upside down lower leg with the toes pointing up. The reclining nymph on the bottom also seems to hold her leg in a strange way as if it's wounded. I don't know the meaning of this, though I guess one could see it in a medical/surgical context.

(Actually, given the nymps' strange proportions, what I marked as knee joint might be a hip joint as well. Any doctors in the house?)

I think, as a variant, the "lab" can be interpreted as an abbreviation of the word "labor" which means not only labour, work, but also suffering, torment or desease. 
For example:
[attachment=397]

Actually it's not easy to decide between goat and lamb. For the goat, it lacks horns, and for the lamb, the tail speaks against it. And the depiction is awkward in itself. However, abomasum fits both options well, because both goats and lambs belong to ruminants.