(11-07-2016, 01:18 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:Does it make sense if aror sheey is a part of the sentence in the first person (I do, I will etc.)?
Technically it does, but in such case it is not clear why would the author encrypt this portion. In my blog post, I suggested some options which could explain encryption:
Quote:- quantitative characteristic, like “three times” or “seven days”;
- qualitative modus operandi, like “wear on the neck”;
- name of the disease, like “against delirium tremens”.
Quote:Could valden or valten be interpreted as walten?
I posed the same question You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I think that deserves attention, although in that case we would again have the reverse order of words, like "<this object> rule over" instead of "rule over <this object>".
Thanks.
I'm also interested how this part of the sentence might be translated in the case of "valden"="walten".
"walten ubren (oberen) so nimm g
âs mich"
I agree with Koen: There are so many varieties of Middle High German that they are just barely the same language. Spelling was not standardized either. So to Searcher and Anton, I don't see any reason why the vord "valden" can't be NHD "walten" or MHD "valten".
"walten über" is a You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view. in NHD and means "rule/preside over". "Walten über den" (valden ubren) would have to mean "rule over this/it" or "preside over this/it."
Anton, you're right about your translation of "do valten in di sunde" - I'll just add that this verb form is third person plural (which I'm sure you know) - "they fell." In German, a conjugated verb usually has a subject nearby (in the poem it's the "si" in the 6th line, which means "they"). It's uncommon for a conjugated verb not to have a subject, which means that it must be one of the cipher words if valden is indeed past.
I believe that exhausts all the MHD options until we find a Middle German professor
(11-07-2016, 03:57 PM)Dolokhov Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree with Koen: There are so many varieties of Middle High German that they are just barely the same language. Spelling was not standardized either. So to Searcher and Anton, I don't see any reason why the vord "valden" can't be NHD "walten" or MHD "valten".
"walten über" is a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in NHD and means "rule/preside over". "Walten über den" (valden ubren) would have to mean "rule over this/it" or "preside over this/it."
Anton, you're right about your translation of "do valten in di sunde" - I'll just add that this verb form is third person plural (which I'm sure you know) - "they fell." In German, a conjugated verb usually has a subject nearby (in the poem it's the "si" in the 6th line, which means "they"). It's uncommon for a conjugated verb not to have a subject, which means that it must be one of the cipher words if valden is indeed past.
I believe that exhausts all the MHD options until we find a Middle German professor
Thank you!
So, maybe, there is still probability that
gas can be
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or
gaff (gaf mich=I gave myself???)
"... so take I gave myself" ?!
I'm not sure whether the phrase "Ich gaf mich" (I gave myself) can be without the pronoun
Ich, but Gothic verb
gaf, gaft sometimes appears in German books as You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view. .
Generally, I think, it is quite possible to be not
gas, but
gaf, also because of the line which comes from the letter "g" through the letter "a" and through the next letter (
f or long
s), it is just worn.
Quote:I'll just add that this verb form is third person plural
Quote:It's uncommon for a conjugated verb not to have a subject, which means that it must be one of the cipher words
That might be very important in decrypting
aror sheey. Actually that gives some preference to the "quantitative characteristic" option. Something like "three feathers fell" or "five nights fell".
It would be interesting to search across medieval spells and see if any of them are associated with some objects having fallen.
And
aror is much less frequent across the corpus than
sheey is.
(11-07-2016, 06:05 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (11-07-2016, 03:57 PM)Dolokhov Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree with Koen: There are so many varieties of Middle High German that they are just barely the same language. Spelling was not standardized either. So to Searcher and Anton, I don't see any reason why the vord "valden" can't be NHD "walten" or MHD "valten".
"walten über" is a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in NHD and means "rule/preside over". "Walten über den" (valden ubren) would have to mean "rule over this/it" or "preside over this/it."
Anton, you're right about your translation of "do valten in di sunde" - I'll just add that this verb form is third person plural (which I'm sure you know) - "they fell." In German, a conjugated verb usually has a subject nearby (in the poem it's the "si" in the 6th line, which means "they"). It's uncommon for a conjugated verb not to have a subject, which means that it must be one of the cipher words if valden is indeed past.
I believe that exhausts all the MHD options until we find a Middle German professor
Thank you!
So, maybe, there is still probability that gas can be You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or gaff (gaf mich=I gave myself???)
"... so take I gave myself" ?!
If that character is indeed an "f", then gaf would be a possibility also - especially since you have found "ik gaf" in another Germanic language. Usually "b" becomes "p" (Bocks -> Pox!) but evidently "f" is another possibility.
The standard pronoun would be Dative "mir" (ich gab mir), but some Germans say "gib mich" also.
Quote:Generally, I think, it is quite possible to be not gas, but gaf, also because of the line which comes from the letter "g" through the letter "a" and through the next letter (f or long s), it is just worn.
I can see why you think that - Anton says that that "worn" part is the beginning of the next "m". It's hard to tell, either way
(11-07-2016, 10:18 PM)Dolokhov Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (11-07-2016, 06:05 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you!
So, maybe, there is still probability that gas can be You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or gaff (gaf mich=I gave myself???)
"... so take I gave myself" ?!
If that character is indeed an "f", then gaf would be a possibility also - especially since you have found "ik gaf" in another Germanic language. Usually "b" becomes "p" (Bocks -> Pox!) but evidently "f" is another possibility.
The standard pronoun would be Dative "mir" (ich gab mir), but some Germans say "gib mich" also.
Quote:Generally, I think, it is quite possible to be not gas, but gaf, also because of the line which comes from the letter "g" through the letter "a" and through the next letter (f or long s), it is just worn.
I can see why you think that - Anton says that that "worn" part is the beginning of the next "m". It's hard to tell, either way
Actually, I think so just looking at this part of the notes, as well, because of You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view.
If my deciphering is even a little correct, the last line of the notes is:
"Retornare ineam walten ubr'en so nim gaf mich." I won't translate the first part in German, I'll just translate all this in English. So, with your help, I can get such translation: "May I enter (begin) to return. Rule over me (this). So take, I gave myself." Or, maybe: "May I enter (begin) to return to rule over this. So take, I gave myself." I don't mean "I gave to myself", but, probably, I haven't understood you clearly (I don't know German).
Correct me, if I'm wrong, please.
(11-07-2016, 11:03 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Actually, I think so just looking at this part of the notes, as well, because of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
If my deciphering is even a little correct, the last line of the notes is:
"Retornare ineam walten ubr'en so nim gaf mich." I won't translate the first part in German, I'll just translate all this in English. So, with your help, I can get such translation: "May I enter (begin) to return. Rule over me (this). So take, I gave myself." Or, maybe: "May I enter (begin) to return to rule over this. So take, I gave myself." I don't mean "I gave to myself", but, probably, I haven't understood you clearly (I don't know German).
Correct me, if I'm wrong, please.
Oh, I see what you meant now. In that case you are right: "(ich) gab mich" is "I gave myself." Sorry for misinterpreting.
In 2012, Johannes Albus read the 'v' of 'valden' and the 'u' of 'ubren' both as 'p'.
Faint descenders are visible:
You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view.
The descender of
Sheey also turns faint.
The shape of both is very similar to the 'p' in 'poxleber'.
This would lead to a whole series of (possible) alternative readings.
(12-07-2016, 07:20 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In 2012, Johannes Albus read the 'v' of 'valden' and the 'u' of 'ubren' both as 'p'.
Faint descenders are visible:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The descender of Sheey also turns faint.
The shape of both is very similar to the 'p' in 'poxleber'.
This would lead to a whole series of (possible) alternative readings.
"pbren" is not very encouraging, so that is likely "ubren" after all. As for "palden", I provided for that in my blog post. I then failed to find any MHD/NFHD interpretations of "palden" or "pald". However, if one follows the same trail as for "valden" above, one may search for "
pellen", hoping that "palden" would be past tense of this "pellen". And "pellen" is found both in You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view. dictionaries, as well as in You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view.!
My knowledge of German is not sufficient to grasp these articles, would anyone please have a look? I guess that "pellen" means something like "to break", "to dissolve" or "to husk"? And btw there is the verb "palen" in modern German. Note that the Rheinisches dictionary specifically states "pālt" as past tense for "pellen".