(02-03-2023, 04:54 PM)pfeaster Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (01-03-2023, 09:06 PM)Ahmet Ardıç Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
[I'm not at all convinced that the structure of Voynichese words reflects a linguistic structure with prefixes and suffixes.]
We have not come across a single prefix in the ATA VM reading study so far. But we wouldn't be surprised if we come across this, because Turkish also has prefixes. The structure of Turkish is accepted as an agglutinative language by linguists in general.This definition should not exclude prefixes because they exist in Turkish, but word suffixes are much more overwhelming in number than prefixes.
[inconsistency in spacing -- in itself -- isn't evidence against the existence of prefixes.]
In fact, not a single linguistic evidence has been obtained that there are prefixes in VM texts. These are nothing more than treating researchers's such predictions as if they had come true.
[It's easy to find documents in which the same expression appears both spaced and unspaced with the same meaning, e.g., "le dict" and "ledict" (in French) or "mit namen" and "mitnamen" (in German).]
I did a quick scan of the "le dict" and "ledict" (in French) or "mit namen" and "mitnamen" (in German) texts you reference, but there is no old manuscript which has any word where has the same prefix was written both as adjacent to and separately from following words in same text by same author in same MS-book. May be there is such manuscript but may be just I didn't see that structure in it.
In other words, I couldn't find any example European manuscript has both structure. This may be just because of due to the fact that the language in which the academic sources are written is not a language that I know, so, probably I did not analyze and search it correctly. But please, if you can present the case of that structure, which is clearly known as you have mentioned, by giving examples in a sentence and by extracting the relevant images from that original manuscript pages as photographs to see all in one single manuscript than I can understand the subject better and we all will see the evidence you mentioned here.
So I hope you can prove what you said because the claim is yours. But even if that happens, a few exceptions, as I said, do not allow us to define the general structure or treat strong probabilities as a secondary assumption.
As a matter of fact, many researches on this platform do not even consider Turkish as the strongest possibility for VM, but the evidence we present provides the most serious and early clear results on VM to date. This is clearly the case, and the majority here, looking at ungeneral exceptional situations (if there is even only one exception if you can show us), seeing them tends to as claims with a high probability of being true and ignoring the evidence we have presented. In other words, it is contrary to the logical approch of science to view the exceptionally rare case as a strong scientific probablity while viewing the strong probablity as small likelihood. The rare probablity shouldn't be more prominent than strong one.
[Out of curiosity, how does your Turkish hypothesis account for pairs such as "ar.al" and "aral," "or.chey" and "orchey," etc.?]
Related your "ar.al" and "aral," "or.chey" and "orchey," specific question;
If you don't mind this, can you please visually break off sentences from the original script and mark these words and add the image and ask again. If you share this from original page photo, I will read and reply according to ATA transcription. Even though I have probably shared these details in my previous explanations, I will explain them once again, no problem.
It would be more useful to ask for different examples by marking the original images line by line and marking these words. Because in order to tell which of the meanings found in the meaning pool of the same root in Turkish is expressed in that line or sentence, it is necessary to see the words next to it.
Let's give a clear example for that the situation is more understandable.
In the Divanü Lügati't-Türk manuscript, which is a dictionary written by Kaşgarlı Mahmud between years 1072-1074, the following meanings are given for the word
ER.
1-) unranked soldier, male, husband, man
2-) the device used to make holes, (such as like a punch)
3-) sunny side of the ground facing south
4-) earth (earth and earth surface)
5_) the southern part of the earth, the sunny side
6-) soil
Note: I haven't touched on all the meanings in the semantic pool here because that's not all. According to the dialects, this phonetic structure can also take on some other meanings. For example, in a dialect, there are cases such as the word YER may have taken the form of ER with the loss of the Y sound in the 15th century, since the front sound of the word YER has decreased over time.
For example, you can see some of the meaning contents of the root word ER in this source dictionary > You are not allowed to view links.
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In this case, we say in which sense ER is used for a word by looking at that sentence etc (& this situation are same for many other word.) You may be not understand easly this. Not easy to grasp this structure by thinking in an Indo-European language, but Turkish is such a language. For this reason, when we explain your question, the answer will not be short, we will evaluate it with the words next to it.
Thanks,