12-04-2019, 06:29 PM
I am having to go through google translate so i will go bit by bit, outlining what i understand Wladimir's interpretation to be, and comparing to my own thoughts on the matter, as well as other ideas.
Wladimir, if i have misportrayed your identifications, or forgotten an important aspect, please correct me.
So first, Wladimir says that some think the rosettes are a map joiningthe continents, showing mountains and the like. His initial view is rather of a smaller proportion, being a plan for the collection of rainwater via tents.
So my first thought was of Jeurgen's portrayal of continents in relation to the rosettes, as it was one of the first interpretations i saw that fell at least partially in line with my own views.
Wastl, Juergen; Feger, Danielle (2014): Summary view of the details in the Rosette Map in VM408 f86v. figshare. Figure.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Click on his name to see other papers, many related to this same topic.
It is similar to my own thoughts except his Antipodes are still Africa to me, specifically Egypt., his Africa is my Morocco, and there are other differences. My interpretation is more like a view of the Mediterranean, as found in many Portolan nautical charts, except it also morphs into other map styles, expanding the view as well, seemingly containing a basic history of cartography. I like Jeurgen's elements, although i also like JKP's take on the other four rosettes indicating the same, and to me the combination of both is also appropriate, taking the whole world into both an elemental and cosmological view.
Other than Diane's interpretation, whose place identifications i dont know, but who has indicated herself to be the first to outline the rosettes as a map (although there might exist earlier indications thereof), and T.H. Ing's view, which i believe included a spot for the Americas, i dont know of many other full world views of the Rosettes, most are more compartmentalized, such as Nick's northern Italy, Mark's Alps, and Claudette's northern Europe, among others. Should we compile a listing of all rosette maps and plans?
I could accept Wladimir's idea of rainwater collection too, it fits in very well with what i see portrayed in quire 13, as beyond the locations i see, it is the connection of water to all places and thus to all who live everywhere, and this could be an extension of the idea that fresh water comes from the sky, should ground water become contaminated, this would be a means of obtaining drinking and bathing water, a purposeful extension of the natural process already outlined.
Wladimir then goes on to compare the finials in the rosettes to those in quire 13, and i believe he matches some up based on their shapes.
Although i agree the finials mean the same things between the two quires, i dont agree with the pairings at first glance, simply because to my interpretations, these are not the same places. However it might bear further comparison, there are various examples of the two main shapes of finial (i think of them as circle top and deformed top) that may yet pair up, i havent investigated this as yet. To me the finials indicate active vs inactive or spent volcanoes, or indications of volcanic origins. I think it goes back to the elemental idea, where did the earth come from? Where did life come from?Fire and water. I think the tent finial idea has been shown by Marco before, but i have yet to find an indication of its use to show volcanic activity in another instance beyond some ancient Arabian markings. However a tent can be thought to be analogous to a volcano especially if heat or cooking is involved and smoke exits the top.
Wladimir continues in a comparison of the rain from under the umbrellalike object to the Koutloumousiou Monastery apocalyptic fresco Vviews presented.
I can accept this as well, at least as a concept. I too see indications of past and future disasters in the ms.
Wladimir then asks why the lower middle rosette tip is not drawn in the same way as the others. He rejects the idea that it is a view from above, and rather explains it as not necessary for this tent to have a tip because of the ropes holding taut the sides of the tent., and points to the squiggly line as a quick way to adjust or disassemble via lacing and unlacing the top.
I see the top view that has been rejected, and the squiggly line for me is a directional hint at rivers and waterbodies in the general vicinity of that center.
Wladimir sees the SW 3.3 corner to depict specific water collection contraptions related to the tents and the initial water collection idea, similar but not as complicated as one in the Eadwine Psalter as presented by Searcher. But he has an alternate view sparked by one of mine that the tents may represent river basins, or a catchment area.
My own view of this rosette includes the symbolism of the 4 rivers of paradise, and the garden of eden, (or perhaps terraces, since the imagery seems to indicate rock or mountain invovement) among both uplifted sedimentary rock and volcanic areas including mount ararat. It also morphs to suggest the Himalayas and the Indus valley. The rainbow design means river basins to me also. So i could agree with the catchment area interpretation especially insofar as it explains the way human civilization developed near river systems such as the Nile, Indus, Tigris, and Euphrates, each of which have their own posited paradises in various places, many of which have been portrayed on maps of the past.
Wladimir then sees an interpretation of the the NE 1.1 rosette as volcano with the bridges as rivers coming from it.
The tower in the hole is seen as architecture destroyed by eruption.
In my own interpretation i hadnt seen this rosette as volcanic until JKP pointed out the analogous shape, i had equated it with desert until that point, but then in investigation of the volcano idea, i discovered there were volcanic systems in the vicinity of my identified location. However i see the tower in the hole as related to the balearic islands, which are evidently not volcanic in nature, although i see the tower as analogous to a seamount between the islands, as a sort of indication that the islands are connected with the bottom of the sea, and sea level changes may possibly have covered and eroded previously existing geology.
Wladimir then shows some other indications of disaster related to the same bridge, linking it to the tower on the other side of rotum 1.2
This doesn't jive with my view as that bridge in my interpretation is France, that rotum is Spain.
Wladimir ends with an indication of water flow from 2.2 to 3.2 re the hatching design, and an indication that this flow continues in quire 13, which will be the topic of his next blogpost.
To me this connection is not water but rift based. Recently i saw bi3mw had made a connection with similar patterns in another rosette with those in quire 13 as well, which i now think of as representing volcanic activity...i did notice a river delta design within the circular patterned connection at the top, i think this may represent the Ebro, and this would link to the morph of Andorra as well, as a tributary flows from there.
I look forward to reading Vladimir's next blogpost, as there are several themes that have been outlined which although do not include the same identifications as mine, do appear to have some commonalities with both views.
Wladimir, if i have misportrayed your identifications, or forgotten an important aspect, please correct me.
So first, Wladimir says that some think the rosettes are a map joiningthe continents, showing mountains and the like. His initial view is rather of a smaller proportion, being a plan for the collection of rainwater via tents.
So my first thought was of Jeurgen's portrayal of continents in relation to the rosettes, as it was one of the first interpretations i saw that fell at least partially in line with my own views.
Wastl, Juergen; Feger, Danielle (2014): Summary view of the details in the Rosette Map in VM408 f86v. figshare. Figure.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Click on his name to see other papers, many related to this same topic.
It is similar to my own thoughts except his Antipodes are still Africa to me, specifically Egypt., his Africa is my Morocco, and there are other differences. My interpretation is more like a view of the Mediterranean, as found in many Portolan nautical charts, except it also morphs into other map styles, expanding the view as well, seemingly containing a basic history of cartography. I like Jeurgen's elements, although i also like JKP's take on the other four rosettes indicating the same, and to me the combination of both is also appropriate, taking the whole world into both an elemental and cosmological view.
Other than Diane's interpretation, whose place identifications i dont know, but who has indicated herself to be the first to outline the rosettes as a map (although there might exist earlier indications thereof), and T.H. Ing's view, which i believe included a spot for the Americas, i dont know of many other full world views of the Rosettes, most are more compartmentalized, such as Nick's northern Italy, Mark's Alps, and Claudette's northern Europe, among others. Should we compile a listing of all rosette maps and plans?
I could accept Wladimir's idea of rainwater collection too, it fits in very well with what i see portrayed in quire 13, as beyond the locations i see, it is the connection of water to all places and thus to all who live everywhere, and this could be an extension of the idea that fresh water comes from the sky, should ground water become contaminated, this would be a means of obtaining drinking and bathing water, a purposeful extension of the natural process already outlined.
Wladimir then goes on to compare the finials in the rosettes to those in quire 13, and i believe he matches some up based on their shapes.
Although i agree the finials mean the same things between the two quires, i dont agree with the pairings at first glance, simply because to my interpretations, these are not the same places. However it might bear further comparison, there are various examples of the two main shapes of finial (i think of them as circle top and deformed top) that may yet pair up, i havent investigated this as yet. To me the finials indicate active vs inactive or spent volcanoes, or indications of volcanic origins. I think it goes back to the elemental idea, where did the earth come from? Where did life come from?Fire and water. I think the tent finial idea has been shown by Marco before, but i have yet to find an indication of its use to show volcanic activity in another instance beyond some ancient Arabian markings. However a tent can be thought to be analogous to a volcano especially if heat or cooking is involved and smoke exits the top.
Wladimir continues in a comparison of the rain from under the umbrellalike object to the Koutloumousiou Monastery apocalyptic fresco Vviews presented.
I can accept this as well, at least as a concept. I too see indications of past and future disasters in the ms.
Wladimir then asks why the lower middle rosette tip is not drawn in the same way as the others. He rejects the idea that it is a view from above, and rather explains it as not necessary for this tent to have a tip because of the ropes holding taut the sides of the tent., and points to the squiggly line as a quick way to adjust or disassemble via lacing and unlacing the top.
I see the top view that has been rejected, and the squiggly line for me is a directional hint at rivers and waterbodies in the general vicinity of that center.
Wladimir sees the SW 3.3 corner to depict specific water collection contraptions related to the tents and the initial water collection idea, similar but not as complicated as one in the Eadwine Psalter as presented by Searcher. But he has an alternate view sparked by one of mine that the tents may represent river basins, or a catchment area.
My own view of this rosette includes the symbolism of the 4 rivers of paradise, and the garden of eden, (or perhaps terraces, since the imagery seems to indicate rock or mountain invovement) among both uplifted sedimentary rock and volcanic areas including mount ararat. It also morphs to suggest the Himalayas and the Indus valley. The rainbow design means river basins to me also. So i could agree with the catchment area interpretation especially insofar as it explains the way human civilization developed near river systems such as the Nile, Indus, Tigris, and Euphrates, each of which have their own posited paradises in various places, many of which have been portrayed on maps of the past.
Wladimir then sees an interpretation of the the NE 1.1 rosette as volcano with the bridges as rivers coming from it.
The tower in the hole is seen as architecture destroyed by eruption.
In my own interpretation i hadnt seen this rosette as volcanic until JKP pointed out the analogous shape, i had equated it with desert until that point, but then in investigation of the volcano idea, i discovered there were volcanic systems in the vicinity of my identified location. However i see the tower in the hole as related to the balearic islands, which are evidently not volcanic in nature, although i see the tower as analogous to a seamount between the islands, as a sort of indication that the islands are connected with the bottom of the sea, and sea level changes may possibly have covered and eroded previously existing geology.
Wladimir then shows some other indications of disaster related to the same bridge, linking it to the tower on the other side of rotum 1.2
This doesn't jive with my view as that bridge in my interpretation is France, that rotum is Spain.
Wladimir ends with an indication of water flow from 2.2 to 3.2 re the hatching design, and an indication that this flow continues in quire 13, which will be the topic of his next blogpost.
To me this connection is not water but rift based. Recently i saw bi3mw had made a connection with similar patterns in another rosette with those in quire 13 as well, which i now think of as representing volcanic activity...i did notice a river delta design within the circular patterned connection at the top, i think this may represent the Ebro, and this would link to the morph of Andorra as well, as a tributary flows from there.
I look forward to reading Vladimir's next blogpost, as there are several themes that have been outlined which although do not include the same identifications as mine, do appear to have some commonalities with both views.