22-04-2016, 05:22 PM
25-04-2016, 06:56 PM
What I see in the Vatican illustration, besides the nebuly line, is a starry dome, a rainbow with God above and a bunch of feathers and whatnot going on below. The similarities with the VMs illustration are minimal.
What I found more interesting, even though there appears to be no biography in English, is the artist, Wynandus de Stega, aka Winand von Steeg (etc.), a German cleric, b. 1371 - d. 1453. He lived mainly in the southwestern part of Germany. He was a competent adult throughout the entire time of the VMs Carbon-14 dates. He was a cleric with possible knowledge of church history and tradition (specifically the red galero). And he drew a darn good version of an elaborated nebuly line or Wolkenband. Not that this makes him the author of the VMs, but these are certainly characteristics that the VMs author might have.
There are several aspects to the matter of nebuly lines in the VMs. And one is their interpretation, which has been discussed. Another is the actual construction of a nebuly line. By definition it must be bulbous, but how bulbous? In some of the elaborated examples of de Pizan or the Apocalypse tapestry, the individual bulbs have been given a serious pair of shoulders to puff out the blue and white cloud bands.
It is better to compare the elaborated version of the Vatican example, not with the plain nebuly line as above, but with the much more elaborated VMs example found in the Central Rosette. Here is where the discovery is made.
In the regular nebuly line and in many of the elaborated examples cited, the stroke that makes up the bulbs of the nebuly line is smooth and flowing. Contrast that with the Vatican example where the stroke that makes up the nebuly line is quite jagged. In heraldic terms the line is mostly of the engrailed / invected type with a few wavy parts.
Now compare that with the VMs example from the Central Rosette. Again the line that makes up the individual bulbs is mostly of the engrailed / invected type with a few wavy parts. Very interesting, no?
Is this technique an individual artistic idiosyncrasy or a German stylist tendency of the time?
What I found more interesting, even though there appears to be no biography in English, is the artist, Wynandus de Stega, aka Winand von Steeg (etc.), a German cleric, b. 1371 - d. 1453. He lived mainly in the southwestern part of Germany. He was a competent adult throughout the entire time of the VMs Carbon-14 dates. He was a cleric with possible knowledge of church history and tradition (specifically the red galero). And he drew a darn good version of an elaborated nebuly line or Wolkenband. Not that this makes him the author of the VMs, but these are certainly characteristics that the VMs author might have.
There are several aspects to the matter of nebuly lines in the VMs. And one is their interpretation, which has been discussed. Another is the actual construction of a nebuly line. By definition it must be bulbous, but how bulbous? In some of the elaborated examples of de Pizan or the Apocalypse tapestry, the individual bulbs have been given a serious pair of shoulders to puff out the blue and white cloud bands.
It is better to compare the elaborated version of the Vatican example, not with the plain nebuly line as above, but with the much more elaborated VMs example found in the Central Rosette. Here is where the discovery is made.
In the regular nebuly line and in many of the elaborated examples cited, the stroke that makes up the bulbs of the nebuly line is smooth and flowing. Contrast that with the Vatican example where the stroke that makes up the nebuly line is quite jagged. In heraldic terms the line is mostly of the engrailed / invected type with a few wavy parts.
Now compare that with the VMs example from the Central Rosette. Again the line that makes up the individual bulbs is mostly of the engrailed / invected type with a few wavy parts. Very interesting, no?
Is this technique an individual artistic idiosyncrasy or a German stylist tendency of the time?
26-04-2016, 09:45 AM
(25-04-2016, 06:56 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I see in the Vatican illustration, besides the nebuly line, is a starry dome, a rainbow with God above and a bunch of feathers and whatnot going on below. The similarities with the VMs illustration are minimal.
Of course, there are a lot of differences between the two diagrams. I also see similarities.
- Above: a canopy.
- In the middle: a nebuly line (whose main function in art is separating the literal or metaphorical "heavenly" from the the "earthly").
- Below: some kind of precipitation.
26-04-2016, 06:42 PM
Hi MarcoP,
As you say, a lot of differences. And a few similarities, which I see as minimal.
A canopy above, is clearly there in the VMs. But in the Vatican example, there is the starry dome, the rainbow and God on his throne , as I interpret the illustration. Where is the canopy? You can't just turn God and the heavenly cosmos into a canopy, can you? Or vice versa?
In the middle... etc. Definitely true of the Vatican example. But what is there in the part above the nebuly line in the VMs illustration? The VMs nebuly line is not a dividing line like the Vatican illustration shows.
And precipitation below. The VMs appears to strongly indicate the flow of some kind of fluid. While in the Vatican example, there are vertical lines, some circles and some plain nebuly lines at the base of the rainbow on either side. Much of this is painted brown, potentially representing the earth in the background. It doesn't look like the generation of precipitation is a significant aspect of the Vatican illustration.
As far as the VMs "umbrellas", I have not suggested any explanation. I don't have one. I am mystified. Certainly the scale-like pattern would be well-known from various sources including a variety of conifers. These representations may have a significance that I don't know. Perhaps.
What I do like a lot is the similarity between the elaborated nebuly line in the Vatican illustration you posted and the elaborated nebuly line in the VMs Central Rosette. The details in the technique are quite a good match and the set to which that technique extends consists of only these two examples, so far.
As you say, a lot of differences. And a few similarities, which I see as minimal.
A canopy above, is clearly there in the VMs. But in the Vatican example, there is the starry dome, the rainbow and God on his throne , as I interpret the illustration. Where is the canopy? You can't just turn God and the heavenly cosmos into a canopy, can you? Or vice versa?
In the middle... etc. Definitely true of the Vatican example. But what is there in the part above the nebuly line in the VMs illustration? The VMs nebuly line is not a dividing line like the Vatican illustration shows.
And precipitation below. The VMs appears to strongly indicate the flow of some kind of fluid. While in the Vatican example, there are vertical lines, some circles and some plain nebuly lines at the base of the rainbow on either side. Much of this is painted brown, potentially representing the earth in the background. It doesn't look like the generation of precipitation is a significant aspect of the Vatican illustration.
As far as the VMs "umbrellas", I have not suggested any explanation. I don't have one. I am mystified. Certainly the scale-like pattern would be well-known from various sources including a variety of conifers. These representations may have a significance that I don't know. Perhaps.
What I do like a lot is the similarity between the elaborated nebuly line in the Vatican illustration you posted and the elaborated nebuly line in the VMs Central Rosette. The details in the technique are quite a good match and the set to which that technique extends consists of only these two examples, so far.
27-04-2016, 08:15 AM
(26-04-2016, 06:42 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A canopy above, is clearly there in the VMs. But in the Vatican example, there is the starry dome, the rainbow and God on his throne , as I interpret the illustration. Where is the canopy?
Describing You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as a canopy was certainly inappropriate, I apologize.
The canopy and the starred dome are related motifs and domes were often decorated with “sky canopies”. This seems to me to be the case with Wynaldus' dome.
“You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: 1250-1310 : an Illustrated Index” lists examples of XIII Century Italian domes decorated with a “sky canopy” (for instance, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
See also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (“Visions of heaven - the_dome in European architecture”) which at p.166 describes the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in Ravenna as a “sky canopy”.
Also (p.169): “The form of the dome itself had, long before the onset of Islam in the seventh century, been regarded by its people as inherently symbolic, a heavenly canopy”.
The vault of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has been described as a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as well.
I should have expressed myself more correctly:
- Above: a canopy (VMS) and a vault decorated with a sky canopy (Wynandus)
(26-04-2016, 06:42 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And precipitation below. The VMs appears to strongly indicate the flow of some kind of fluid. While in the Vatican example, there are vertical lines, some circles and some plain nebuly lines at the base of the rainbow on either side. Much of this is painted brown, potentially representing the earth in the background. It doesn't look like the generation of precipitation is a significant aspect of the Vatican illustration.
Wynandus describes an apocalyptic scene. A rain of fire? I tried to get more information from the text, but it's too long and hard to read, I am sorry. The parallel between the two illustrations is that the vertical lines indicate "something falling from the sky". I would say, rain in the VMS and hail or worst in Vynandus' prophecy. I hoped that "precipitation" could be generic enough to encompass all the possibilities.
27-04-2016, 04:51 PM
Upper, middle "the rosette" is similar to the Coliseum. Presumably at the Coliseum was a similar hinged roof. That is, this rosette depicts the process of collecting rainwater from the roof ( of tent).
The artist is has combined view from the top, and isometric, so in the background is not painted drops, and from the front flowing "stream".
The artist is has combined view from the top, and isometric, so in the background is not painted drops, and from the front flowing "stream".
27-04-2016, 05:05 PM
(27-04-2016, 04:51 PM)Wladimir D Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Upper, middle "the rosette" is similar to the Coliseum. Presumably at the Coliseum was a similar hinged roof. That is, this rosette depicts the process of collecting rainwater from the roof ( of tent).
The artist is has combined view from the top, and isometric, so in the background is not painted drops, and from the front flowing "stream".
Thank you, Wladimir!
The design is very similar indeed. The central "pole" is there both in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of the "umbrellas". This is something I had missed and that clearly is extremely relevant.
PS: the 1945 paper "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." by Karl Lehmann traces the history of the "sky canopy" design through the centuries. There are interesting similarities and differences with the objects observed in the Voynich manuscript.
27-04-2016, 06:57 PM
MarcoP,
To boil it all down, the points of similarity consist of a more or less horizontal nebuly line and a series of vertical lines beneath it, that apparently indicate something falling (from the clouds.) But can you take the VMs illustration of a 'canopy' and say, "Oh yeah, look, it's the starry dome and rainbow with God on his throne?, just like that illustration by Wynandus de Stega."? Not as I see it. That's just my opinion.
Webster has three definitions for canopy: (1) a drapery, (2) something by nature overhead, like trees or the sky, (3) an architectural construction. All possessing the general similarity that they are overhead, rather than under foot. But no one is going to mistake one for the other - outside of a planetarium.
The VMs illustration shows the generation of the mysterious VMs fluid in some unknown manner. And what is being precipitated in the Vatican illustration? Well, if the text indicates an apocalyptic vision, then I'll have to go with hell-fire and brimstone, with the circles pictured being the stones. I don't get any sort of apocalyptic feeling from the VMs illustration, although the option of religious interpretation is clearly present in the cross. It's hard to say how that affects what's going on in the illustration, if we can't specify what is going on.
Rather than discussing the interpretations, I am more interested in the specifics of artistic technique, particularly in the way the nebuly line in the Vatican illustration is constructed, so that it looks all jagged and pointy. In my experience with the use of nebuly lines to depict cloud bands, that is an unusual characteristic. And it is most interesting that the VMs cloud band around the Central Rosette displays a similarly jagged line in the construction of the nebuly line shown there.
So far I don't even have the proper search words, to get to the type of images that might be relevant to this investigation. Any help appreciated. I've started a new thread to discuss this nebuly line similarity, if there's anything to be said.
.
To boil it all down, the points of similarity consist of a more or less horizontal nebuly line and a series of vertical lines beneath it, that apparently indicate something falling (from the clouds.) But can you take the VMs illustration of a 'canopy' and say, "Oh yeah, look, it's the starry dome and rainbow with God on his throne?, just like that illustration by Wynandus de Stega."? Not as I see it. That's just my opinion.
Webster has three definitions for canopy: (1) a drapery, (2) something by nature overhead, like trees or the sky, (3) an architectural construction. All possessing the general similarity that they are overhead, rather than under foot. But no one is going to mistake one for the other - outside of a planetarium.
The VMs illustration shows the generation of the mysterious VMs fluid in some unknown manner. And what is being precipitated in the Vatican illustration? Well, if the text indicates an apocalyptic vision, then I'll have to go with hell-fire and brimstone, with the circles pictured being the stones. I don't get any sort of apocalyptic feeling from the VMs illustration, although the option of religious interpretation is clearly present in the cross. It's hard to say how that affects what's going on in the illustration, if we can't specify what is going on.
Rather than discussing the interpretations, I am more interested in the specifics of artistic technique, particularly in the way the nebuly line in the Vatican illustration is constructed, so that it looks all jagged and pointy. In my experience with the use of nebuly lines to depict cloud bands, that is an unusual characteristic. And it is most interesting that the VMs cloud band around the Central Rosette displays a similarly jagged line in the construction of the nebuly line shown there.
So far I don't even have the proper search words, to get to the type of images that might be relevant to this investigation. Any help appreciated. I've started a new thread to discuss this nebuly line similarity, if there's anything to be said.
.
28-04-2016, 12:10 PM
In the paper I mentioned above (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Lehmann writes (p.11): “...from an early period, we meet a different development which also continue in Christian art. This is based on the pseudo-illusionistic representation of a canopy spread out in the center of ceilings or of other supposed openings. In this variety, the points where the tent-like velum is fastened to the edges of the opening are marked by projecting angles between concave sides.”
This “umbrella-like” canopy was typically used in the decoration of ceilings and vaults. The motif was known through the Middle Ages and had a huge revival in the Renaissance, after the Domus Aurea frescoes were re-discovered at the end of the XV Century (the Torrechiara ceiling is an example).
When comparing the visual examples and Lehmann's description with the Voynich illustration, I see two major differences:
Should we conclude that the Voynich objects are independent from this well-documented “canopy” visual tradition?
![[Image: attachment.php?aid=305]](http://www.voynich.ninja/attachment.php?aid=305)
This “umbrella-like” canopy was typically used in the decoration of ceilings and vaults. The motif was known through the Middle Ages and had a huge revival in the Renaissance, after the Domus Aurea frescoes were re-discovered at the end of the XV Century (the Torrechiara ceiling is an example).
When comparing the visual examples and Lehmann's description with the Voynich illustration, I see two major differences:
- the central pole that appears in the Voynich ms and is absent in all other cases;
- the fact that the curves on the border are convex in the VMS, while they are concave in all other cases.
Should we conclude that the Voynich objects are independent from this well-documented “canopy” visual tradition?
28-04-2016, 12:35 PM
Interesting! The one in the old St.Peter does have a cross, though this does perhaps not say much.
A bit off-topic, nice to see how similar the old St.Peter and the (restored) St.Paul were.
The drawing of St. Peter is from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(I happen to be a big fan of the history of the city of Rome, so took note of this MS when I first saw it).
A bit off-topic, nice to see how similar the old St.Peter and the (restored) St.Paul were.
The drawing of St. Peter is from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(I happen to be a big fan of the history of the city of Rome, so took note of this MS when I first saw it).