The Voynich Ninja

(29-01-2019, 08:47 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What do you think? I kind of flashed through this post and noticed the trend going in this direction, too, at least to the mountain id.  Which is what it is, a special kind of mountain.

These folios are clearly about water flow, but starting from where? It could be mountains and volcanoes, but I have a problem with the rows of inverted hills/knobs in the "pine-cone" pattern, and the surrounding cloud-bands.

The undulating cloud-band pattern is as standard as can be, it always symbolizes the (element) air, then what air separates from, above, is clear enough in my opinion: clouds (the "pine-cone") and rain (the "umbrella") .

Rain-clouds do not usually look like regular rows of inverted hills/knobs, only mamatocumulus do but you have to allow for symbols not depicting exactly what they represent. The "pine-cone" pattern is similar to naive drawings of waves on the sea, albeit inverted.

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Rain falls in all directions around you (hence the radial "umbrella" pattern) when you look at the zenith. The folios describe water flow, starting from rain-clouds in my opinion.

This pattern depicting clouds is hard to find in medieval imagery. I just found this on Nick Pelling's blog: saints in heaven.

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Leone Otasso and His Wife Presenting Their Sick Son to Saints Aimo and Vermondo; A Crowd of Lay Worshippers Giving Thanks
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(29-01-2019, 01:38 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-01-2019, 08:47 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What do you think? I kind of flashed through this post and noticed the trend going in this direction, too, at least to the mountain id.  Which is what it is, a special kind of mountain.

These folios are clearly about water flow, but starting from where? It could be mountains and volcanoes, but I have a problem with the rows of inverted hills/knobs in the "pine-cone" pattern, and the surrounding cloud-bands.

The undulating cloud-band pattern is as standard as can be, it always symbolizes the (element) air, then what air separates from, above, is clear enough in my opinion: clouds (the "pine-cone") and rain (the "umbrella") .

Rain-clouds do not usually look like regular rows of inverted hills/knobs, only mamatocumulus do but you have to allow for symbols not depicting exactly what they represent. The "pine-cone" pattern is similar to naive drawings of waves on the sea, albeit inverted.

Rain falls in all directions around you (hence the radial "umbrella" pattern) when you look at the zenith. The folios describe water flow, starting from rain-clouds in my opinion.

Hi nablator, thanks for the reply, i appreciate the ability to clarify what i am trying to convey.

The cloud bands represent air carrying water vapour, in my eyes. They can be around the mountain instead of on top of it, or it can all around it literally





Or you might not see it at all, it could just settle as dew. So i don't see a problem with cloud bands surrounding mountains, nor not being there, as is the case with the one on f84v. 

But what you see as clouds, i see as mountains. What you see as air are my clouds of water vapour, whether it is precipitated or condensed. No, inverted hills don't look like rain, but the do look like hills, don't they? To me the umbrellas represent the lava flows from the tip, not rain. I can see it looking like water, because that is the subject, not the mountains but the water interacting with them, so your waves are my droplets on the mountains that turn into rivulets, then streams and rivers that go to the lakes and seas and gulfs and oceans. My rain is the vertical lines that sometimes appear under the undulating cloud bands.

To me, the mountains are generally drawn as conglomerated rubble. They can be stratified, or more or less orderly in their makeup, just as different types of rocks and mountains are. But the volcanic mountains are the most orderly looking of all of the mountains drawn, i think it is because it is showing the solidifaction of molten material, so there is less rubble compaction shown than would be the case with sedimentary rock. I dont have a problem with them being shown upside down. As Koen's composite shows, they have been on maps like that before, and also the quire is obfuscated, so some things are out of place on purpose to keep the visuals vague to the casual eye.

I don't think the streams are literal geographically, they simply explain in a literal way the connections they are showing. For instance, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. says water falling down from the volcanic rock goes underground, is heated, and returns to the surface every so often, then goes back down, and comes up somewhere else. Eventually that heated water joins the sea water in the gulfs, and although the gulfs are separated, their contents are connected, not by a literal stream, but by the fact that they are part of the same sea under the same sky, and also they each receive underground or overland infusions of fresh water from the rock around them.

From where does the water flow start? From the heavens, then it traverses the world, with water connecting us all, no matter where we may be.

I believe i know the places shown, some from recognition, (albeit with an ignorant eye to the obfuscations), some from ordering those pages and determining the ones in between. I forgot to mention You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in my previous post, it is in Italy just north of Rome, which is where the stream leads to at the bottom of the page. Not only do all roads lead there, but streams too Indeed again there is an inactive volcano in the viscinity of the lakes shown.

The quire's water trip starts at Sagres Point in Portugal at the Atlantic Ocean and almost every Sea within the Mediterranean you can think of is shown, along with some major rivers and some of the largest lakes. It follows shorelines around and about and encircles Europe before returning to Asia and the Caspian Sea down the Euphrates to the Persian Gulf, on to the two gulfs at Gujarat in India, across to the Red Sea, through the canal to the Nile, down to the mountains of the Moon, crossing the Congo, and sailing the African shore north again to where we started. And what is interesting about this is that various geographers wrote tours like this thousands of years ago, starting and ending near Gibraltar as this one does.

Where does the water flow? Everywhere. I think that is the point of the quire.

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(29-01-2019, 01:33 PM)DONJCH Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Very interesting possibility here.

Thank you! I'm quite excited about it actually.

(29-01-2019, 02:32 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This pattern depicting clouds is hard to find in medieval imagery. I just found this on Nick Pelling's blog: saints in heaven.


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Leone Otasso and His Wife Presenting Their Sick Son to Saints Aimo and Vermondo; A Crowd of Lay Worshippers Giving Thanks
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Interesting example, the first one looks like water, the second one looks like a cross between what i call mountains, and rainbow river systems. 

Perhaps they indicate a firmament rather than a cloud.

Do you know the significance of the wands the saints are holding?

The undulating cloud bands were also sometimes used to show sacred things or people, or to indicate people from the past or from mythology, but i take the ones in quire 13 to be far more literal clouds. 

Here is a more literal usage of the bands as the sky or perhaps the firmament



However in quire 14 i see it as indicating and combining various beliefs, some tangentially due to their mythologic basis, a way of incorporating ideas with places, perhaps.

Back to pinecones, i think Claudette has a good composite in this one



Magmatic rock.

Here is some from northern Portugal



May also indicate formations like this



This one is Penido de Lexim, found north of Lisbon in Portugal



Note the 3 pronged finial on the bottom of the nymph's bay, the green part, which i believe is the mouth of the Tagus river, in which you will find Lisbon. It is very similar to the finial to the left in the pic above. I think it stands for the nearby indications of ancient tectonic activity, which caused the fault line at that location to be opened and create the river mouth. It has since filled with silt and is no longer as open a rift as it once was.

I wrote a new blog, which summarized the posts I had previously published and added additional arguments on the ROS page. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  
small translation.
After reading Linda’s research You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   , I came up with another interpretation of “umbrellas.”
These umbrellas can symbolize a river basin with tributaries (a catchment area).
If the rosette (1.1) really depicts a volcano, then we get that two rivers from its two slopes in the central rosette merge together.
In this case, the river in (1.2) separates the two settlements. The city closest to the volcano is partially destroyed. This can be seen in the figure, as if cutting a cake into 4 parts with a knife and spread it in different directions. Part of the water tower was on the rosette (1/1).
Another example of disaster is the empty foundation (which I called the scaffold), and the tower hanging in the air, between (1.2) and (1.3).
The rosette (2.2) in this case can be a lake (fountain) from which water is taken, and is transported by (3.2).
But where does the water that accumulates at the bottom of the outlet (3.2) go according to this “hydraulic” scheme? This will be the subject of the next blog, entitled “Relationship of the ROS page and Quire 13a”.
 
 

There have been so many good ideas for these umbrella/pinecones things I'm starting to lose track.

I wonder if we need a list, so we have a quick-reference all in one post. I would offer to do it, but my workday is starting momentarily. Just an idea. I don't know if others are feeling as overwhelmed as I am and whether they think it's a good idea, but I thought I'd suggest it.

Sounds like an idea, i am looking forward to reading Wladimir's take, will be later today though.

The post for the blog is still not completely ready, but I can give a hint.
Place the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in a central rosette.
Look up. Then - to the left. Such a coincidence is not accidental. Different tips of umbrellas are used for orientation.
It becomes clear why cans with elixirs are drawn in the central rosette (in the drive).
Q13a is a consequence of (explanation) ROS.

(11-04-2019, 07:23 PM)Wladimir D Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The post for the blog is still not completely ready, but I can give a hint.
Place the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in a central rosette.
Look up. Then - to the left. Such a coincidence is not accidental. Different tips of umbrellas are used for orientation.
It becomes clear why cans with elixirs are drawn in the central rosette (in the drive).
Q13a is a consequence of (explanation) ROS.

I agree, although i have not checked if we share the same logic on that. Will be able to look into it better later, but I do agree that they inform  one another, on a similar vein.