The Voynich Ninja

(10-11-2017, 10:14 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Rene recently mentioned a page by Adam Mc Lean in which the "pinecones" are compared with mountains in the Angelica De Balneis ms. ...

In the context of mountains, I could only find references to posts from Jim Reeds and Brian Smith. In your example from Adam Mc Lean ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ) , there is only a brief commentary on "liquid streams":

Quote:Note in both images the strange 'pineapple' sort of figure from which streams of liquid descend down to the bathers. This 'pineapple' form appears in a number of the Voynich balnealogical images.

To be honest, that surprised me a bit. From an "alchemical point of view" it is certainly possible to establish a connection to mountains. I discussed a late but very clear example with @JKP and @Paris. The discussion starts You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .

If I had overlooked a comment by Adam Mc Lean, I would be glad about the source.

There's some nice tents in the mountains in the MS Marco linked elsewhere:

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And some more here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

What I find interesting is that the "tents" appear to have a partially symbolical meaning, which would probably become clear when comparing the image to the source text.

(13-11-2017, 11:00 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There's some nice tents in the mountains in the MS Marco linked elsewhere:

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And some more here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

What I find interesting is that the "tents" appear to have a partially symbolical meaning, which would probably become clear when comparing the image to the source text.

Hello Koen,
I agree on the fact that those tents are interesting (also when compared with a few of the "rosettes", e.g. bottom center).

From what I understand, both references are to literal tents:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. corresponds to Genesis 31:33 - And Laban went into Jacob's tent, and into Leah's tent, and into the two maidservants' tents; but he found them [i.e. his idols] not. Then went he out of Leah's tent, and entered into Rachel's tent.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the crossing of the Red Sea, with the Jews encamped on the shores of the sea Exodus 14:1-2 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the people of Israel to turn back and encamp in front of Pi-ha-hi′roth, between Migdol and the sea, in front of Ba′al-ze′phon; you shall encamp over against it, by the sea.

If we include the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., we have more or less close parallels for several details. Still it's very difficult to make sense of the whole. The tent+mountain/stream composition seems to me likely to represent something different from tents and possibly from mountains too.

Thanks, Marco. It looks like the three elements "balneis-like", "mountainous terrain" and "tent/canopy" are likely referenced in these folios. I haven't got the slightest idea what the pipes could be. It's a shame that there aren't many examples, and that the manuscript you link to is later than the VM.

I was hoping that the "encampment" picture was somewhat of a visual shortcut to express a more complex thought, since the VM composition doesn't look like it can be literal. It's like someone took existing Lego blocks and put them together in a strange way.

Many of these natural spas date back to the Roman era, and aqueducts were installed to direct some of the water, so if those pipe segments turned out to be aqueducts, it wouldn't surprise me.

These are from Ephesus (I may have already posted these some time ago, I can't remember). They don't have dots along the sides, but the specific designs and manufacturing methods were usually decided by local tradesmen, so they might vary somewhat according to region:

 

Here are some that are very pitted:

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They also used lead pipes (from Ostia antica):



Pipe segments in Pompeii:

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Pipe segments in Turkey:




Ellie has also posted some good examples of saltpeter tubes (which have rows of holes or indentations).

(13-11-2017, 04:10 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... The tent+mountain/stream composition seems to me likely to represent something different from tents and possibly from mountains too.

At least a connection from alchemical, "liquid streams" from the mountains to balneology would be conceivable. The study of metallic, mineral and sulfur spas ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  ) was a kind of "secondary discipline" of alchemy. At least there was a clear overlap of the fields of work. It was not about transmutation, but about the "analysis" of spa waters:

Quote:Debus, A. G., The Chemical Philosophy, Dover Publications, 2013, p. 14–18

Medieval Medical Chemistry: The Analysis of Spa Waters

Closely assosiated with the medieval interest in transmutation was a parallel trend that led to the employment of chemical techniques in medicine. One significant area of interest was the analysis of spa waters. The importance of tests for the purity of ... 
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In the above-mentioned "De balneis et thermis naturalibus omnibus Italiae" of Savonarola, the different spa waters are presented in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ( including sulfur ).

(13-11-2017, 09:10 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(13-11-2017, 04:10 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... The tent+mountain/stream composition seems to me likely to represent something different from tents and possibly from mountains too.

At least a connection from alchemical, "liquid streams" from the mountains to balneology would be conceivable. The study of metallic, mineral and sulfur spas ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  ) was a kind of "secondary discipline" of alchemy. At least there was a clear overlap of the fields of work. It was not about transmutation, but about the "analysis" of spa waters:

Quote:Debus, A. G., The Chemical Philosophy, Dover Publications, 2013, p. 14–18

Medieval Medical Chemistry: The Analysis of Spa Waters

Closely assosiated with the medieval interest in transmutation was a parallel trend that led to the employment of chemical techniques in medicine. One significant area of interest was the analysis of spa waters. The importance of tests for the purity of ... 
[ You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ]

In the above-mentioned "De balneis et thermis naturalibus omnibus Italiae" of Savonarola, the different spa waters are presented in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ( including sulfur ).

Thank you bi3mw,
the book passage you linked is very interesting. I don't know much about this subject, but it seems to me that the medieval analysis of spa waters as discussed by Peter of Eboli, Giacomo de Dondi, Montagnana, Savonarola etc. was strictly scientific and quite different from the most mystical "transmutation" alchemy. If Quire13 is related to those works, it should be interpreted strictly literally, but I find it difficult to believe that all images were meant to represent actual hydraulic works. This part of the VMS could very well be related to the subject, but it would be important to understand if the authors mentioned above made use of allegories, personifications etc. It would also be interesting to find out if other manuscripts of their works in addition to Peter's De Balneis were illustrated.
Anyway, that passage is full of references that are new to me. Thank you again for sharing it!

(15-11-2017, 12:31 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....If Quire13 is related to those works, it should be interpreted strictly literally, but I find it difficult to believe that all images were meant to represent actual hydraulic works....

I would be surprised also. I would expect it to be laid out differently. But if one were to combine bathing advice with mythological references to bathing, and then simplify it to the drawing skill of the VMS, it might come out like this.


In the Middle Ages, before "truth in advertising", mineral and thermal baths all over the world were purported to heal just about everything and were considered to be inhabited by spirits, so these places had a certain mythical stature to begin with that might inspire an allegorical approach.

I think the tubes on f78r are hot springs. The heat got me thinking. I was looking at Koen's mountain pic collage, 



wondering about the finial, and why the flower design, when i realized there were finials on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the blue water. 



I knew there was a volcano where i had located this to be, and looking at the islands to the south, that is before they dried up, now you can see a base the same size as the volcano and then you can see them everywhere... they are another deteriorated volcano, making the drawing a perfect representation of Lake Urmia as a lake with 2 volcanoes in it that although nothing but fresh water goes in, is actually very salty, so is coloured green. It also expplains why the two finials are different, intact vs not.



And the hot springs of f78r made perfect sense to be connected to the pinecones, if they were volcanoes, and fit with the location of Lesbos as i had thought it to indicate. The gulfs were formed through volcanic action.

Then i checked out the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. one and yes there is an extinct volcano in Gujarat in between the river Indus and the Bay of Kutsch, that feeds both of them just like it says.



Then I checked for the one on f75r, and realized the staff thing the nymph holds is a finial not attached to a mountain, and lo and behold there are underwater mud volcanoes at that exact spot. 



The only one i couldnt exactly pinpoint was the one on top of f75r. However, if you follow the water, some comes from the north Ural mountains which wiki says are flattened, which could be mistaken for being extinct volcanoes. There is one to the south. 

Why a finial? Because it blows its top and needs a placeholder. Because it looks like there is a circle at the top of the mountain. Literally. Or maybe it is meant like a stopper in a decanter? Here is the one to the south of the Caspian.



The flower and parasol designs are representative of lava flows.

The shingling is the resultant crystallization of some of the rock. The dots are indicative of porous rock perhaps. Here is the Gujarat one.



What do you think? I kind of flashed through this post and noticed the trend going in this direction, too, at least to the mountain id.  Which is what it is, a special kind of mountain.

Very interesting possibility here.