The Voynich Ninja

Full Version: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations
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(29-12-2025, 09:20 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The whole repeating thing is a (often repeated) myth, I only keep trying to reinforce this because maybe it is important rather than trying to nit-pick.

Well, if you care, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is what I see in that sequence.  

All the best, --stolfi
The next item I’d like to share here has to do with the three “V” images on the first page of the VM (f1r). There are two prominent ones beginning the second and third “paragraphs” and one more faintly on the top right corner of the page. Let me for ease of reference call them V1 (beginning second p.), V2 (beginning third p.), and V3 (on the top right corner of the page).

As far as I know the nature of these images are still unknown among scholars. They are treated as possible letters (even given Unicode numbers or EVA assignments), or as capitals that often in larger size begin paragraphs.

Dr. Lisa Fagin Davis has stated on her blog: “It is quite possible, likely even, that these two unusual characters were found on one of the missing leaves. The style of the letters identifies them as what Voynichologists call “capitals” or “majuscules” out of expedience and convention (what they ACTUALLY are is unknown). These characters are now only found on the first page, and they are clearly different from the glyphs at the bottom of the second column of revealed symbols. There’s another character in this style at the top of the right margin (shown at the lower right in the mosaic above), but its purpose, too, cannot yet be determined.” (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)

Below, I will show and explain how they can be explained as a possibility.

Please note that the church I will be referring to is not anything I claim to be directly associated with the VM (unless someone finds a reason to do so). All I want to do is to show that in Medieval Europe, the images (especially V1 and V2, and perhaps V3 if also related but is still illegible, standing for something else), were employed to convey meanings that happen to be also central to the Voynich manuscript, as far as (at least) its illustrations go.

In Denmark, there is a church named Sjelle Krike (Sjelle Church). Although its present building dates to more recent times, rebuilt in major parts in recent centuries going back to 1595, the earlier structures of the church that survived (perhaps going even back to the 12th century or earlier) had a wall fresco/mural that despite having faded, was legible enough to be redrawn in a painting that adorns one of its walls.

The old fresco image had looked like this: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The restored image can be found on this page of the church on the right column: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . It can also be seen here (you have to choose the tab “Kalkmalerier” to see these) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. both as the same restored image, and also how it is displayed on the wall of the church, prominently.

I found the image doing a google “image” search of the V2 image on the first page of the VM.

Why is this finding relevant?

First, what is the fresco image on the church wall?

There are three depictions of the curvy lines and it is clear to me that they represent the same image usually depicted around the Sun, that is, Sun rays. For example you can see a depiction here in a different church (just used as an example here) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

But the rays in the fresco of Sjelle Kirke are not around the Sun, but in my reading, just rays from the stars, that can include the Sun, but also can have religious connotations of heavenly influences.

There are two V shaped figures on the fresco images. One on the left without the circle (it must have been faintly present in the older mural for later restoration), and another with the circle in the middle of the large V in the center. Two rays appear on the left, and one directly on the top of another element on the bottom right.

In my reading, the left image is a plant without a blossom, and the prominent V at the center is with the blossom. There is a thin curve connecting the barren V on the left (without the blossom) to an element on the right. I think they represent female and male elements respectively, from whose interaction (depicted by the thin curved line) the prominent plant with the blossom results.

Overall, the fresco is expressing the influence of the stars (not just the Sun), on plants as well as the female/male human elements. In a church setting like this, this is also likely representing the immaculate conception in particular, but perhaps more generally how natural/plant and human lives are influenced by heavenly rays.

I think this is what we are seeing on the “first page” of the Voynich manuscript.

V1 represents a barren plant without a blossom, or female not yet pregnant. V2 represents the same receiving the influence of the stars. The fact that they begin the second and third paragraphs respectively is that perhaps in the 2nd paragraph, V1 is referring to the problem of infertility, or a plant not yet with a blossom, and V2 is suggesting that the book includes a discussion of how rays can influence plants and humans in favor of growth and fertility.

Now, regarding V3, given its faint status, it is hard to judge whether it is playing on the same symbolisms as in V1 and V2. The V of the V3 is more curvy and thicker, and to me the overall image of it (including all the parts including the 2-3 lines forming a face) looks like a bull’s head seen from the side (could be a ram, but, it is more like a bull’s head, since the horns are short). If so, the first paragraph may be referring to a Zodiac identification of the person the VM belongs to, with a Taurus ascendant, for example. My V3 interpretation is more speculative, but I am more confident about the interpretations of V1 and V2.

All the three symbols looking similar and appearing on the same, important, first page of the Voynich manuscript seems to be deliberate, playing with the double-meanings of a plant, femininity, star ray influences, and something having to do with a Taurus Zodiac ascendant sign.

The text of the first page appears to be 4 signed paragraphs. I doubt they are “quotes” in the modern sense of the word, but who knows if they are or not. But the first page is structured differently than the text in other parts of the manuscript, as if it is an explanation of what the book is mostly about.
@ Jorge_Stolfi, Thanks much. That is a very helpful chart to compare the repeated four sections and to see what the differences may be.

That is exactly what I meant by the repetition. I think Bluetoes101 was referring to something else when he called it a myth, comparing things across the circles, not just on the before-last circle. I guess that is where it is helpful not to introduce one’s own theory in other threads, since it confused me quite a bit, and likely others as well.

 In my thread, given its spirit, I really don't mind others coming in to show how their findings and theories overlap with what I am sharing; in fact, I encourage it. But if it becomes a cause of confusion and a way of just sharing one's own theory without that overlap interest contribution, then it will just distract from the purpose of this thread.

For some reason, from the very beginning, I treated the “weirdo” S3 (in your chart) as standing apart from all others (it is the tallest and widest of them all and its height exceeds the outline of the outer line of that circle of letters). I have not treated it as part of the series, but a marker separating the 16 figures. Of course it is anybody’s guess, but for me the cycle begins with the 9 in each phase and ends with the rare one (B3 in your chart).

I am also inclined to see the differences of some glyphs as scribal errors, but I am still hesitant, since in a geomantic interpretation, they may mean something. I have not dwelled more on the geomantic interpretation recently, so will leave it at that for now.

But I’d like to add in appreciation that I think the repetition or generally what is happening on that third circle from the chart’s center has something to do with the left column of letters on two pages of the plants: one on page 66r (which incidentally is the one with the ill lady on the bottom) and one on page 49v.

These are the only two plant pages where those numbers are so prominently columned on the left, and even there they are repeated to some extent, only the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. circle repeat letters (and rare ones) appear in those columns.

I wonder if in your helpful chart, if it is not too much of a trouble (no rush), those two page column letters can also be added and compared to see if there is a pattern across the chart and those pages. I think the plants on those two pages must have a special significance, for the f57 chart as well, and I strongly feel the 4-set repetition has something to do with those plant pages.
(31-12-2025, 03:18 AM)MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.For some reason, from the very beginning, I treated the “weirdo” S3 (in your chart) as standing apart from all others (it is the tallest and widest of them all and its height exceeds the outline of the outer line of that circle of letters). I have not treated it as part of the series, but a marker separating the 16 figures.

I think that trying to draw any such conclusions is a waste of time at this point.  I don't see how such speculations would help us understand the manuscript. 

But I believe the 4x17 sequence starts at ~10:30 with the o, because of the extra-wide gap there.  

Also the first period, from that o to the next one, spans ~100 degrees, while the last period, from the third "updown lambda" to the final one, is compressed into ~80 degrees; and one can see in several other diagrams that the Scribe could not plan his circular diagrams, not even to the basic level of dividing a circle with 4 sets of things into 4 equal parts.  He just started writing or drawing without plan, and then when he got near the end of the circle he usually had to cram things to get them to fit.  Or even move the last few things to an "overflow" area, as he did on f73r or f73v.

There is also a double line across the text ring at that wide gap.  But I don't trust it much, since it may well be a late addition.  Maybe even by the NSA guys who had the VMS punched into cards, around 1950.

Quote:has something to do with the left column of letters on two pages of the plants: one on page 66r (which incidentally is the one with the ill lady on the bottom) and one on page 49v.

Well, the only similarity I see is that all three are sequences of signs that include some common glyphs and some weirdos that occur nowhere else.  But the weirdos are not the same, and only some of the common signs are the same.

And while the 4 x 17 sequence of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is surely original (albeit somewhat altered by Retracers), I suspect that those two other sequences may be late additions.  Like the three-column table on f1r.  Thus I would rather not spend much time on them... 

Quote:These are the only two plant pages where those numbers are so prominently columned on the left

I would not consider You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. a Herbal page, even if though it is in the same quire as herbal pages.  I consider it a member of the "Unknown" subset. 

And even You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are rather unusual for Herbal, since they have a lot more than the average amount of text. 

All the best, --stolfi
(31-12-2025, 02:23 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well, if you care, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is what I see in [the 4x17 sequence of f57v]. 

By the way, if it helps, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is that same image without the annotations.  

Again, the first 4 rows are the 4x17 sequence (clockwise, starting from the o at ~10:30).  The last row is some signs from the other text rings which either occur in the 4x17 sequence or I thought were relevant for some other reason.  And a clip from the arm of the south "angel".

All the best, --stolfi
@ Jorge_Stolfi, yes, sorry, I understand your point about the effort of adding other rows may not be fruitful. If I ever get back to the question of the relation of the chart to those pages, I will share it.

I am not sure whether that gap and the ‘o’ at 10:50 (why 10:30?) necessarily indicates cycle beginning, but that for some reason ‘o’ was more fitting for that location for substantive reasons. I think generally, the 10:50 is a significant location in many charts, and the scribe began there for that reason in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. too, while ‘o’ fitting there for a reason we don’t know.

I see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as herbal page because I regard it corresponding to the previous page 65v. It just happens that for space reasons it did not fit there, and they put it on the following page. Sorry, I should have mentioned it in my post. Again, all these matters of speculation.

I am not sure about the unusualness of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and 49v being a reason for not considering them as part of the herbal. After all we really don’t know, and what is not unusual in the VM?

I appreciate your offering the image without the annotations. Hopefully I can add those page comparisons at some point to it in some way with the help of this chart and if I do I will surely share it here.

One technical question since I am new to this forum, I don’t see any “upload” link for images here; it seems you are all uploading it somewhere else and just providing the link, right? I can do that from my google drive, but it seems it would be easier to have some uploading link to do so directly from computer.

I am sure this has come up with many newcomers, so must do the loop via uploading images elsewhere and providing a link to it. Probably the forum software is doing it this way to save disk space, and that is understandable, now that I think about it. Otherwise it will require a huge space for all the images being shown in posts.
(31-12-2025, 05:17 AM)MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One technical question since I am new to this forum, I don’t see any “upload” link for images here; it seems you are all uploading it somewhere else and just providing the link, right? I can do that from my google drive, but it seems it would be easier to have some uploading link to do so directly from computer.

If you click "Reply" (NOT "quick reply") you get an area below the composition window where you can upload images to include in the post.

But this forum software (MyBB) is indeed absolutely the worst forum software I experienced since I first got access to the Internet in 1979, when a "forum" was just a mailing list.

This MyBB looks like it is a clone of another forum software (SimpleMachines) that I got to use when I was watching the bitcoin scene (at bitcointalk.org).  Or that package is a clone of MyBB, or both are clones of some other package.  But MyBB is worse than SimpleMachines in *E*V*E*R*Y* single detail.  From the silly image upload mechanism to the way threads are paged for display, to the waste of screen space to the buggy text editor that cannot even do a simple paste without messing up the spaces and line breaks...  If this was not the forum where the serious Voynich action is happening, I would be out of here in an instant...

All the best, --stolfi
(31-12-2025, 06:34 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you click "Reply" (NOT "quick reply") you get an area below the composition window where you can upload images to include in the post.

All the best, --stolfi

Aha! I see the upload area now! Thanks much.

@ Jorge_Stolfi, thanks for your understandable and helpful thoughts on the forum software. After posting mine, I realize I could just upload the images to my site and use their urls, but your “reply” solution will be more helpful. Actually I had not even noticed that “reply” button to use (so I just did now and see what your forum software solution works!), and this one is my own bad, so I am just learning the forum software for now.

Regarding that 10:30 or 10:50 confusion also I realized you just meant the hour-hand of the clock and not the minute-hand, so it was my misunderstanding since I thought the two clock hands were meant to fall on each other. In any case, yes 10:30 hour-hand position seems fine of perhaps just 10:00 would do.

Clearly there is an empty space and a line (from the center) on that chart, and the way I see it, the scribe wanted to make sure ‘o’ falls exactly on that 10:00, even if others ended up not being precise, and the choice of ‘o’ is meaningful and not necessarily the beginning of the four (in my view 16) repeated series, separated by the largest “ligature” which can stand for the name of that third circle (from center) information, perhaps for "geomancy" significations, if that is the case, though still speculative.

Even the person on the right trying to say where the east is with his right hand (for this chart only as explained before) is pointing the circle (perhaps the Sun) toward that ‘o’, and it may well be the case, as Antonio Garćia Jimenéz has said, ‘o’ represents the Sun when the letter is used for the purpose of astrological notation. In this chart, it may even have also other geomantic significations.

I am not yet convinced that that ‘o’ does not have any other, basic alphabetical, significance, being also just an ‘o’. I don’t think it has to be either/or, but both/and, the text of the VM using regular “letters” also as astronomical (or perhaps even geomantic), notations, something we do even today when we use alphabet in math or other illustration markings.

I will later post some images related to those I have posted about to make things more accessible visually and will try somehow to add those two-page column letters so that it can help along with the helpful 5-rowed image you kindly provided. I really did not mean to add to your work but was excited about seeing the helpful chart.
(31-12-2025, 06:08 PM)MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Regarding that 10:30 or 10:50 confusion ...

I use hour:minute notation to specify approximate directions in circular diagrams.  So "~10:30" could be anywhere between 10 and 11 o'clock, depending on how much precision is needed.

Quote:the way I see it, the scribe wanted to make sure ‘o’ falls exactly on that 10:00

I don't think the Scribe wanted to position anything that precisely in those circular diagrams.  Again, he could not even divide  a circle into four equal parts.  He generally started circular texts at ~10:30, but with rather wide variation.  Even on f57v, each ring of text seems to start a little offset from the next one (except for the outermost ring, whose starting point is uncertain). 

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a detailed description of this page that I wrote some time ago.  I hope it helps...

All the best, --stolfi
Regarding the 4 x 17 symbol sequence of f57v. It's an old topic, if that is the elephant we're looking at.

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The point is that the triple structure is real. And if we choose to assume that the VMs *may* make sense, then the structure might be presumed (for the sake of investigation) to be intentional on the writer's part.
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