The Voynich Ninja

Full Version: Elephant in the Room Solution Considerations
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(20-01-2026, 11:42 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(20-01-2026, 11:25 PM)MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The question I had asked you was regarding that vertical column formatting, and it seems it is not anything unique to her books, though she may have used them uniquely for her purpose.

It's an extremely common medieval style for any text in verse. See this thread: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

@ nablator, That's a very helpful thread. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I am also now inclined to see it as commonly done in medieval texts, but in the VM (and in other books) may have its own meaning, or used to express something, like a signature. If one reads the column vertically, it seems, for a few letters in a row (not all), one can find similar row of letters in the text, but that can be purely coincidental.
(20-01-2026, 11:56 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.When I see any vertical reading, I can’t help but immediately thinking of Ogham, as it was written vertically originally by nature (pun intended). I write about this in greater detail when translating both vertical lines on 66r in the VMS. Let me know if you like to see how those lines in the manuscript read using my lexicon and approach, this can also be found on my GitHub.

Unfortunately, my approach to the VM research must involve some prioritization of venues that are more reliable (for me) to pursue. So  because of lack of time and economy of attention for purely personal reasons, I have to be careful with spending too much time on one particular solution, whoever may be offering it. This is not in any way a judgment on the value of your (or others) research. I will consider any information you have provided (or you'd like to provide) in due course along with others. 

From the minimal information I am seeing about Ogham (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) I am not seeing any resemblance to what I see in the VM on those two pages, and being vertical does not seem to be a sufficient hint at relevance, unfortunately, especially in light of the fact that such a formatting pattern was common in medieval texts.
(20-01-2026, 01:19 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Rene
You are welcome to do so.

I had overlooked the three PDF files before, but now I copied them. Let me see what can be done with that.

Having the text of those images in a text file or word document would be very helpful. We can take this to PM.
(20-01-2026, 10:31 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The elephant in the room would like to know: Supposing a plant list is compiled, as others have done in the past. What good is the list? Does it help to interpret the text in some way? So far, the answer is no. Self-validations excepted.

As demonstrated by what people have been writing about this topic, there is great interest in the question of plant identification. 

There have also been generalised statements in printed literature that do not do justice to the subject, suggesting that all plants are fantstic and non-existent.

Having more, and more detailed descriptions can onlybe helpful.
To MHT: my approach has always been logical and agnostic. Are you learning from our different approaches or are you saying your approach to the Voynich is time-conservative and extractive ?I take some issue with that, if so. I see Ogham and Celtic scripts are referenced directly in the VMS.. Ogham (in inner rim of some circles in the VMS) and Celtic alphabetic script (in blended language words in astrological center circles and 116) they are pretty undoubtedly there.With these direct references why wouldn’t we approach the text through Irish? In my process I also asked, why was vertical writing so common in medieval times? When did that start? How far does that go back? What does it link to? 

Definitely important questions to ask.
(21-01-2026, 12:44 AM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To MHT: my approach has always been logical and agnostic. Are you learning from our different approaches or are you saying your approach to the Voynich is time-conservative and extractive ?I take some issue with that, if so. I see Ogham and Celtic scripts are referenced directly in the VMS.. Ogham (in inner rim of some circles in the VMS) and Celtic alphabetic script (in blended language words in astrological center circles and 116) they are pretty undoubtedly there.With these direct references why wouldn’t we approach the text through Irish? In my process I also asked, why was vertical writing so common in medieval times? When did that start? How far does that go back? What does it link to? 

Definitely important questions to ask.

I respect your trying to pursue your interpretation of the VM and wish you well in doing so.
@ Aga Tentakulus et al. I appreciate all the work you have done on trying to identify the plants from your point of view and experience. Your contrasting identifications of the plants (along with alternatives others have provided), shows how debatable the field has been regarding the identity of the plants in the Voynich manuscript.

The reason I became interested in those two pages in particular, in light of the fact that in my earlier post I noted how the images could have become unrealistic over time across manuscript copying, was partly due to the associated “columned” listing with them as previously noted, and partly in relation to the question of their medicinal significance, a topic I have not seen engaged with as much as it deserves, in my view, when efforts have been made in identifying the plants.

Not being able to read the text, my sense is that the sheer number of plants gives the impression that the VM author was treating the collection as a catalog of medicinally helpful source for herself. So, it would be unreasonable to think that all the hundreds of plants are there for one specific ailment or medicinal value. That makes sense to me. She was helping herself and loved ones by gathering as best as she could the information she needed for medical needs.

But the two specific You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are unique in terms of the lists associated with them, as if the author was focusing on them in particular for some reason, and even operationalizing them, given the coded letters, which I think have something to do also with the third circle of the chart on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (just my speculation, given some rare letters are found there as well).

So, I asked myself in what way the focus on those two plants can be meaningful in the context of the VM as a whole, and a question that came to mind regarding their medicinal value (both benefit and/or harm) was in relation to fertility and pregnancy.

Before Aga Tentakulus’s response, based on the general identifications offered by others I noted, I thought if one is Chamomile and the other Water Lily, interestingly what I was finding online was that they were regarded negatively (or not, depending on intention) even in those times, for matters of fertility and pregnancy.

Water Lily, for instance, could be used to quell sexual appetite, as an anaphrodisiac (usable by monks or nuns, it seems). Chamomile could be risky for pregnancy and discharge if misused.

I don’t want to go into details as they can be researched online, but my point was, depending on those identifications, we may find that those plants can be risky, but the risk may be relative. If you don’t desire fertility, or you want abortion of a dead fetus, they may be found helpful (disclaimer: I have no idea if these are true or not, but found the information online, so please don’t try!!).

Now, what Aga Tentakulus offered as the plant identities, turned the whole game around. From what I could fine online the two plants (he identified) had opposite medicinal value, which seemed very interesting, if he is correct. They help with fertility and pregnancy.

This led me wondering about which may be more reasonable in the context of the VM, and this morning, I realized something I had not considered before.

I thought perhaps a both/and answer may be even more interesting to consider. Since we don’t know what the text says, I thought it is possible that the handbook is itself trying to offer a composite instruction about plants that look like A and B, but may be C and D, so it may be trying to warn the reader to be careful and this may explain the ambiguity of the pictures as well.

Whoever makes a mistake between the two options, let’s say, can pay a heavy price in terms of fertility and pregnancy. You may think you are taking something to increase desire but end up losing it. You may think you want to help with pregnancy but result in liver damage or abortion. Conversely, you may want to lose the desire but gain it. You may want to induce a pregnancy termination but fail to do so.

So, the fact that you are all finding different identifications may be itself interpretively significant for the purpose for which the plants have been drawn as ambiguously, since the point is to explain matters in a way that may prevent a risky outcome.

Another way to look at it, is that the ambiguity evoked may be sociologically and even politically significant. If you want your rival’s legacy to discontinue in terms of not having heirs, you give them A for tea!! If you want to complicate a pregnancy, give them B for supper. Or, in Aga Tentakulus’s interpretation, if you want to help with both, give them the Venusnabel (Umbilicus veneris) or Lein (Liuum) for lunch.

Poisoning was a very common way of getting rid of enemies then as well, so we should always consider that the instructions in the VM could be deemed helpful or not, depending on the purpose for which they could be intended. An author trying to understand what is happening to her life, and is very serious about it, must also deal seriously with ambiguities of finding what plant is being used. A wrong choice can be deadly, physically, or in terms of a legacy.

The above are just some speculations, of course, but I think it can broaden the scope of why identifying the plants can be helpful. For me, it was not about just identifying them per se, but understanding their medicinal significance particularly in relation to matters of fertility and pregnancy.

I still think that those two plants on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (and f66v) that are treated with a list that later becomes operationalized in the manuscript to be very interesting. If the plants end up being entirely different plants, who knows, I think the above line of inquiry can still prove helpful.
(21-01-2026, 12:28 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There have also been generalised statements in printed literature that do not do justice to the subject, suggesting that all plants are fantastic and non-existent.

Well, some plants seem to be real ones, drawn with varying degrees of skill.  But some are almost certainly fantastic.  

In the case of a few common plants, such as Viola tricolor on f9v, the Scribe and/or the Author could have drawn them from natural specimens collected locally.  However, it is not possible that the Author had actually seen all the hundreds of plants presumed to be described in the VMS; much less the Scribe. Thus most plants must have been copied from other books -- by the Author into his draft, or directly by the Scribe.  Like most plants in most herbals were at the time.  

Thus, at best, most plant drawings must be the result of dozens of "telephone game" steps of graphic corruption by illustrators, stretching back several centuries.

However, it seems that some VMS plants were meant to look fantastic.  Like f5v, the Tennis Racket tree, or f40r, the Absurda topologica. Their bizarre features cannot be just the result of the Scribe's five-thumbs artistic level.  The "crib" books probably included some version of the "alchemist's herbal", whose plants are definitely fantastic. (Do we have clear evidence of that, namely details that definitely come from such a source?)

The fantastic drawings imply that those plants did not exist, or that the Author had only a verbal description and had no idea of what it looked like, in whole or in part.  Either way, the Scribe would have been free to make up the missing pieces -- from his imagination, or by combining parts from the "crib" books.

Thus, even the drawings that can be identified as real plants may be just placeholders for other plants, possibly non-existent.  Maybe the text of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not about Viola tricolor, but about Herba Lunaria and its virtue of falsifying coins and getting one in other people's favor...

All the best, --stolfi
I often talk about the text as medical, purposeful and protected. The flowers look so extraordinary but in fact they might be quite ordinary. Stolfi, the identifications you have listed I don’t think are what is described in the text. Let me know if you want to know what the text reads. It is my understanding that touch played an important role in the depictions of the flowers.Textures are particularly accentuated. I’m not sure exactly why (pigment or situation wise) but there’s most likely a solid reason blue was used to show white in some flowers. Many of the plants I’ve identified are anti-inflammatory and their respective directions (applications/uses)are detailed. In terms of historical and geographical research done with my colleague Caira, the medical nature of the text I talk about in several videos checks out timeline and travel wise. Lots of unfortunate medical things going on during this timeframe.
Some plants are almost identical.
Example: tansy. F87v.
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In
Hildegard von Bingen: ‘[...] anyone who experiences heaviness and pressure in the stomach from various unpleasant foods should take soup cooked without vegetables or other herbs, add tansy to it, cook it again, and eat it often when cooked, as it will soften the stomach, make it light, and promote pleasant digestion. [...].’[28]


Hildegard von Bingen: „[…] wer im Magen von verschiedenen üblen Speisen Schwere und Drücken hat, der nehme Suppe, die ohne Gemüse und ohne andere Kräuter gekocht ist, und da hinein lege er Rainfarn, und er koche es von neuem, und gekocht esse er es oft, und es erweicht seinen Magen und macht ihn leicht und bereitet eine angenehme Verdauung. […].“[28]

If I now want to search for names in the text, I have virtually no chance.

Names:
Für den Rainfarn bestehen bzw. bestanden auch die weiteren deutschsprachigen You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: Drefot (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Drusenkrud (Oldenburg), Jesuswurz (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Kraftkraut, Kraftkrut (Mark bei You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Matbleamen (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Michelkraut, Milchkraut (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. am You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Muttergottesrute, Peerknöpe (Oldenburg), Pompelblumen (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Presskraut (Österreich bei You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Räuber, Rainfahn, Rainfeldblümlein (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. bei You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Rainfohre (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Rainvan (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Regenfahn (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Reifen (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Reiefa (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Reinefaren (Ostfriesland), Reinefane, Reinewane, Reinfaor (Altmark), Reinfan, Reinfano (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Reinvano (althochdeutsch), Reinfar, Reinefarn (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Reinfaren, Reinfarn (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Reinvan (mittelhochdeutsch), Renevane (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Rennefarre (PrignitzYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Rennfarn, Revierblumen (Schlesien), Revierkraut (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Reynnfann (althochdeutsch), Reynvann (althochdeutsch), Reynfano (althochdeutsch), Reynfarn, Reynvaen, Reynvarn (mittelhochdeutsch), Reyvane (mittelniederdeutsch), Rienfaren (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Rinfert (Siebenbürgen), Säfkesad (Ostfriesland), Seefkesad (Ostfriesland), Sawrsaot (Altmark), Tannkraut, Weinfaren (Schlesien), Weinwermuth (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), Weisswurz (bereits 1482 belegt), Wormkruud (Ostfriesland), Wossstickenkrud (Altmark), Wurmkraut (Österreich, Eifel), Wurmkrud (Ostfriesland) und Wurmsamen (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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