The Voynich Ninja

I was much too glib in that statement...what I should have said was "The content of the VMS speaks TO ME of women's knowledge and women's wisdom." There is no way to determine whether the manuscript was written by men or women or both (or neither...) until we can read it.

(07-12-2021, 07:39 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Q13 has to do with feminine health

I don't think this is the case.

I think the nymphs appearing predominently female has more to do with the history of nymphs than the gender of the artist. 

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(10-12-2021, 06:21 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(07-12-2021, 07:39 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Q13 has to do with feminine health

I don't think this is the case.

This quote is really unfortunately clipped, it makes me say the opposite of what I believe 

(10-12-2021, 07:11 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(10-12-2021, 06:21 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(07-12-2021, 07:39 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Q13 has to do with ... health

I ... think this is the case.

This quote ... makes me say ...what I believe.

There is nothing wrong with a bit of clipping.

(10-12-2021, 07:11 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(10-12-2021, 06:21 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(07-12-2021, 07:39 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Q13 has to do with feminine health

I don't think this is the case.

This quote is really unfortunately clipped, it makes me say the opposite of what I believe 

I am sorry i didnt mean to imply it was your belief, just wanted to comment on the statement

Linda said:
I think the nymphs appearing predominently female has more to do with the history of nymphs than the gender of the artist. 
**

Agreed, it's not just about the gender of the artist. It's more about the gender that is inherent in the languages of the era. And from the language therefore, also in the thought and in the representation. Even Christine de Pizan has her representations of the nine, nude Muses. So does the VMs. She also uses the scallop-shell version of the nebuly cosmic boundary (as does the VMs, as does BNF Fr. 565.) Both Pizan and BNF are sourced to Paris in the early 1400s.

The VMs has 'the though', but what it lacks is the representation, [and about a dozen pages]. VMs representation certainly isn't Greek, and it hardly ranks at fair to middling among its contemporaries based on the C-14. The general lack of refinement in VMs illustrations has been turned to advantage by causing a lowering of expectations regarding VMs sophistication. Perhaps the drawings are so crude that complex interpretations cannot be considered. What is the nature of the cosmos and the zodiac as the VMs relates to the contemporary data of the C-14 era => as it was known to the VMs artist?

The many VMs 'bathing' nymphs are associated with water, for many others, it's hard to say what they are doing. For those in the zodiac, it seems probable that they represent days. Particularly as their number is halved in the two-part (paired) representations of VMs Aries and Taurus.

(10-12-2021, 09:15 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The many VMs 'bathing' nymphs are associated with water, for many others, it's hard to say what they are doing. For those in the zodiac, it seems probable that they represent days. Particularly as their number is halved in the two-part (paired) representations of VMs Aries and Taurus.

As i think quire 13 outlines a journey of the old world ecumene, the water seems to me to be associated with the need of it for living things to thrive, ie people gathered in places that provided the means for living. That the water nymphs were friendly to men, can be seen as analogous to water being "friendly" to life. A water source, the availability of food (most of which also requires water), landscapes or materials for shelter. As people found certain places more sustainable than others, more permanent shelters were built and people began to stay in one place and travelled for different reasons other than just to survive. The tubs in Aries and Taurus seem to me to stand for architecture, or rather urbanization, and there is more to talk about in these ages in terms of human activity, which is why i think they are split in two. The further back, the more nomadic people were, and less traces survive of their impact on the places they inhabited, and their architectur and customs unknown, hence naked walking nymphs as opposed to clothed nymphs in tubs.

As i think they are talking about ages rather than months in the zodiac section, they represent lifetimes to me. Nymphs were long lived, according to the reference. If a great year is 25920 years, divided by 12, each astronomical age would be 2160 years, divided by 30 would be 72 years, relatively long lived by human standards of the past that would likely see 3 generations before them and after them, the continuing cycles of life, and the customs thereof.

So i guess to me they represent both life and time, which can lead to ideas of genealogy, (heraldry? but only for a blip of time), generations, growth, change, migration, and so we are back to a journey around the ecumene, ie the habitation of earth, the story of life and how it is distributed. The plant sections can be pulled in by explaining the distribution of plant life in similar ways, the cosmos and other aspects to explain further the situation and nature of earth itself. The story of everything.

As to the vms being the work of female authors, i think it is possible, but to me the info is genderless while at the same time inclusive of all.

(07-12-2021, 07:39 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An argument in favor of women being behind the VM relies on a mostly literal reading of the imagery. The plants are medicinal, Q13 has to do with feminine health, basically a scientific compendium. Is this correct? In favor of a "gender-agnostic" interpretation, I have argued that men would also draw "souls" as female figures (anima is feminine), but this requires an interpretation of the nymphs as souls and/or allegorical figures. If I understand correctly, it is the mostly literal interpretation which pushes the balance towards likely female involvement.

I agree with Koen that the necked females represent the souls, hence the expression 'naked soul' for one's conscience. In the VM, they seem to have the same function as the angels in Hildegard of Binge's works. There are no angels in the VM, but then, again, angels came from the patriarchal society. On the contrary, Sophia, the divine Wisdom, was the inspiration of Greek mystics. The prophetess of Delphic Oracle were well educated women. The female writers and mystics made great contribution to the medieval spirituality, however, I believe the the VM was written by a monk, who had great compassion towards women and who openly called for the Church reforms to give more opportunities for women in the Church. 
My main reason why I believe the VM was written by a male author is the lack of feminine endings. With my transliteration alphabet I was able to find mostly masculine nouns, verbs, adjectives and pronouns, from which I conclude that the the author, or authors, were the Carthusian monks.

The assumption that the VMS could be a work by women for women is perhaps supported by the assumption that it could be written about women. This, of course, requires a "literal" reading of the imagery. Nicholas Gibbs, for example, claimed in 2017 that the VMS is a largely "plagiarized" guide to women's health. Templates, according to Gibbs, are said to have been the Trotula and De Balneis Puteolanis. Indeed, similarities in the depictions cannot be dismissed. This is especially true for De Balneis Puteolanis (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ).

I consider the leap from subject to authorship rather daring but not impossible. With the same conclusion, however, one would have to impute a female author to the aforementioned originals. In the case of De Balneis Puteolanis this is definitely not true, the author was Petrus de Ebulo. There it does not matter whether men or women have made the illustrations.

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edit: I don't want to get into Gibbs' text analysis here. His "abbreviated Latin - theory" has already been sufficiently refuted.

The VM could have been produced by women, and it could be about women as well. I kind of hope that this is the case, because in my opinion it would make the VM more interesting. The reason I keep opposing the assumption that the VM is made by women though, is that the arguments in favor are really poor and show a limited understanding of medieval iconography. I have especially the likes of Claudette Cohen in mind, who claims that the VM was made by Nordic women because most human figures in the VM are female and blonde.

There is a good example of why the VM nymphs don't have to be the product of female authors in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Cary and I discussed in our recent post. It was painted in the 14th century by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for the chapter house of the Dominican order. Made by an Italian man, for Italian men. This is the part of the fresco I want to draw attention to:

[attachment=6216]

Now let us zoom in - what do you see? Keep in mind that this fresco is explicitly allegorical - one of the names given to it is "Allegory of the Active and Triumphant Church and of the Dominican order". 

[attachment=6217]

There are three adults and eleven children at heaven's gate. The tall figures appear to be St. Peter and two angels who are handing out crowns of flowers to those approaching. The children are all or predominantly female and blonde. 

Now, seeing this scene through Claudette Cohen's eyes, the only logical conclusion is that a bunch of Finnish girls died simultaneously and they are now in heaven. However, this does not sound like something di Bonaiuto would paint for the Florentine Dominicans. In the allegorical programme of the fresco, these little girls represent the souls of mankind. Weird as it may seem to us, the monks who had their meetings near this fresco would have seen their own souls as those little girls.