(04-11-2021, 10:04 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And conversely, Hildegard was a woman but there are plenty of men in the Scivias illustrations (Prophets, other biblical figures, normal people...).
Hildegard gave her visions to the scribe, monk Vollmar, to write the manuscript. One can assume that also the illustrations were made by someone else. If the illustrator was also a man (monk), then this could of course have had an influence on the design.
For the VMS it is also conceivable that the authors have passed on their work to create the manuscript. Then both men and women could have taken over the transcription and illustrations in a monastery ( less likely ) or in a workshop. However, the uniqueness of the VMS in image and writing speaks against this. This rather suggests that the authors were also writers and illustrators. It would be then so to speak everything from one hand. Therein lies a chance, because if one could determine ( for example ) by the writing the sex, then one could draw also conclusions on the authors.
(05-11-2021, 12:04 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (04-11-2021, 11:38 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Alright, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. one is probably more serious.
It would be cool if we could show a picture of the VM to a handwriting analysis AI. But from the abstract of that link it seems to me that they are talking about text patterns (vocabulary?), not handwriting per se.
I can weigh in on this a bit. Science is only beginning to understand the way that prenatal and pubescent doses of testosterone (or the lack thereof) affect brain development, but the effects of this variable are quite wide reaching.
bim3w, that paper you linked is fascinating. In the late 90s, I took a multiple choice test online that was similar in purpose to the Bem Sex-Role Inventory. Each question consisted of a statement, with 4~6 different responses to choose from. I had to choose the response listed that felt closest to the response I would give in real life to such a statement. I noticed that for many of the test questions, the responses to choose from differed only in wording, and expressed largely the same sentiment. (It correctly identified me as androgynous, or what is called “genderqueer” in some circles nowadays, in case you were wondering.) Since a lot of the choices differed only in wording, clearly the test used documented statistical differences in the way men and women use language, as it’s basis for placing test subjects. I have indeed been mistaken for a woman when I’ve posted anonymously.
In terms of handwriting, what I’ve noticed anecdotally is that girls and women deviate from the cursive penmanship models originally taught to them less than boys and men do. Whether this says something about gendered brain differences in fine motor control, language, problem solving, or all three, remains to be seen.
(05-11-2021, 04:33 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hildegard gave her visions to the scribe, monk Vollmar, to write the manuscript. One can assume that also the illustrations were made by someone else. If the illustrator was also a man (monk), then this could of course have had an influence on the design.
I doubt that it would have made much difference. It's not like she would have populated the Church or Synagogue with female clergymen, or increased the number of female biblical figures in her text just to be able to draw more women.
Don't get me wrong, I would be fascinated and delighted if the VM turned out to be a woman's work, and I still think it is possible. But The depiction of men or women respectively is probably not the best indicator for medieval artists' gender.
Renegade: another factor is the education system itself and how society and gender roles impact men and women differently. For this reason, I am afraid that modern insights regarding handwriting differences may not be easily transferred to a medieval setting,
unless there are constants across cultures.
If there are multiple scribes in the VMs, will hand-written text reveal the scribe's gender? Are all these scribes presumed to be male or is that simplistic assumption factually flawed. Moving up to the 15th Century, there is the reference that Christine de Pizan made naming the illustrator, Anastasia. So women could be and were involved in manuscript production.
Hand-writing analysis depends on the examination of other written examples from male and female hands, for a given language in a given era, I presume. The VMs has no linguistic examples beyond itself. There are no other known, male or female hands for intra-linguistic comparison, so the comparison is between two different languages, one of which is not known. What factors would indicate the writer's gender?
On the other hand, the VMs illustrations clearly offer differing interpretations based on the artist's potentially perceived gender. For what purpose have the nymphs been distributed in so many VMs illustrations?
During the early 1400s, there is the religious example of Colette of Corbie. There were numbers of women in various religious organizations, who would have been among the better educated of their time. So there would have been various possibilities for both males and females, who might essentially be seen as historically anonymous. And from those possibilities, some person or persons produced the VMs.
(05-11-2021, 07:27 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In terms of handwriting, what I’ve noticed anecdotally is that girls and women deviate from the cursive penmanship models originally taught to them less than boys and men do. Whether this says something about gendered brain differences in fine motor control, language, problem solving, or all three, remains to be seen.
The brain differences and the consequences in the areas you describe are interesting. One can assume that these differences are independent of culture ( both time and place ). One can train a modern AI on these gender differences in writing. But with the VMS there is the problem that there are no comparison texts (as R. Sale mentioned). There would have to be something like "universal factors" in the typeface which, independent of the alphabet, indicate the gender. I do not know if something like that exists.
As for the cursive writing, I think that years of geometric drawing in school has left its mark on men.
I don't know how it was with you, but with us the girls had no longer technical lessons. For example, technical drawing, geometry.
(05-11-2021, 10:04 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know how it was with you, but with us the girls had no longer technical lessons. For example, technical drawing, geometry.
There is no separation in the curriculum per se, but of course technical classes tend to be attended by more men.
What I think might be relevant as well is attitude. For many years already, girls are outperforming boys in school because they "fight" harder. Maintaining a tidier handwriting may be a part of that. Together with neurological and physical differences. The issue is likely very complex, with a combination of both universal and context-specific causes.
To bring Claudette Cohen's blog back to this thread, here is a post that shows her reasoning regarding "nordic/slavic" female authorship: You are not allowed to view links.
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Her argument goes that since all nymphs are blonde, the VM was likely made in an area where many blonde people lived. The blondness of the VM is a strong argument against an Italian origin, according to her. This assumption is naive, and ignores the artistic convention of depicting (young) people (especially women) with blond hair, especially when they are not portraits of literal people.
Italian manuscripts with lots of blond women that I found in one minute on Pinterest:
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Several Balneis MS, like You are not allowed to view links.
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Who knew de ' Grassi was a Swede?
(05-11-2021, 11:02 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Her argument goes that since all nymphs are blonde, the VM was likely made in an area where many blonde people lived.
I also think that this conclusion is a bit hasty. However, I am not quite sure how to evaluate Claudette Cohen's claim that the nymphs in the VMS are individual, real persons ( quote: "
They are historical. They are real. They have existed. These are their portraits."). Maybe this is true for some of the nymphs, who knows. Especially the crowned ladies could be real although they are rather roughly drawn.
I agree that some of the nymphs look like they could refer to real people, specifically the clothed nymphs around the Zodiac images.
For the majority of the nude figures though? Would they really do that, draw so many nude portraits of women they knew? Is there any precedent, apart from characters in stories?