I was thinking that even if we just consider the suns and their apparent path, the castle as south is the most logical.
Searcher touched above on the point of implied movement. If we look just at the suns, they both face the way they are moving, resulting in the circular motion we would expect of a body in orbit. No matter which direction you put on top, the sun cycles clockwise.
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The arrows point the way the sun moves. One of the colors describes its path through the southern sky, that is, shining upon the Earth. In Searcher and Diane's view, this would be the blue path, while I argue in favor of the green path. All individual buildings (ignoring those parapets/cliffs things that surround the whole foldout) are found within the red E-S-W triangle. Castle, "temple", little houses, portals... The Sun wheels over them, then sets at the "temple".
The direction the suns face supports this movement as well. We know the sun wheels clockwise, so the top sun must scale the horizon, which is indeed where it is looking at. And the bottom sun must move towards the weird pattern beneath it (Ocean's waves?) which is where it is facing.
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(01-07-2021, 10:44 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All individual buildings (ignoring those parapets/cliffs things that surround the whole foldout) are found within the red E-S-W triangle. Castle, "temple", little houses, portals...
Of course there is a wall with Ghibiline merlons on the causeway between the bottom left rosette and the bottom centre rosette; I don't know if that is what you mean by a parapet.
(01-07-2021, 10:15 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In fact if anybody were to ask me which word in the Voynich I could best guess the meaning of, I would say, EVA-asal is "asia" as we read in the T/O map on the Rosettes folio.
The problem with this is that with all VMS labels - they do not seem to be designators. Look at f68v, the supposed "Asia" part there does not feature this
asal at all, and labels for other continents are different as well.
It doesn't have to be Asia, Europe, Africa.
It could be water, fire, earth. Or clergy, aristocracy, peasants. Or God, Son, Holy Ghost. Or any other combination of medieval tripartite. I've seen T-O maps with all of these.
(03-07-2021, 12:32 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (01-07-2021, 10:15 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In fact if anybody were to ask me which word in the Voynich I could best guess the meaning of, I would say, EVA-asal is "asia" as we read in the T/O map on the Rosettes folio.
The problem with this is that with all VMS labels - they do not seem to be designators. Look at f68v, the supposed "Asia" part there does not feature this asal at all, and labels for other continents are different as well.
I have seen You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. and given it some thoughts, which are somewhere in the forum. There are two possibilities:
1) The You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. T/O map is not an Asia, Europe and Africa T/O map, but something else e.g. "Earth", "Fire", "Water"
2) The You are not allowed to view links.
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Login to view. T/O map half circle contains a list of places in Asia therefore, of course, the text for "Asia" would not be contained within it.
I think (2) is the more plausible. One thing that is noticeable is the gaps and spacing of the vords in the half circle, so this is not flowing "sentence" text. So these words seem more like a collection of labels such as "India", "Persia" as is not unusual to see in T/O maps.
When it comes to the labels for other continents these may just be abbreviated forms on the Rosettes T/O map as the starting glyphs seem like they might be the same as on the f68v, though it hard to tell as they are quite faded.
(03-07-2021, 12:43 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It doesn't have to be Asia, Europe, Africa.
It could be water, fire, earth. Or clergy, aristocracy, peasants. Or God, Son, Holy Ghost. Or any other combination of medieval tripartite. I've seen T-O maps with all of these.
It doesn't have to be Asia, Europe, Africa. It could Bacon, Egg, Sausage. Anything is possible.
I just think that Asia, Europe, Africa is significantly more likely than anything else, especially given the context of the Rosettes page where geographical features are more prevalent.
I also think statistically you can ask what percentage of T/O maps you have seen with a given specific set of labels. If, for example, you have seen only one T/O map with "Heaven", "Hell" and "Limbo" then that doesn't have as much weight as the many "Asia", "Europe" and "Africa" T/O maps. I, myself, have seen lots of "Asia", "Europe" and "Africa" T/O maps, but I can't remember seeing a "Clergy", "Aristocracy" and "Peasants" T/O map, so I would think they are much much rarer. It is to some extent a question of probabilities and I think one can use this to ask what is the likelihood of a specific kind of T/O map being the correct one.
(03-07-2021, 03:50 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is to some extent a question of probabilities and I think one can use this to ask what is the likelihood of a specific kind of T/O map being the correct one.
Normally, I would agree with you 100%.
In this book? Dunno.
Still, I fully agree that these labels in the T-O
should be an obvious crib into the text. Trouble is, I've spent years on and off worrying at that T-O map, and never found a single damned thing worth telling anyone about.
I wish you more luck than I've had.
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@davidjackson
I can understand you well. I have one here too. But I have no idea what it means.
(03-07-2021, 06:05 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (03-07-2021, 03:50 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is to some extent a question of probabilities and I think one can use this to ask what is the likelihood of a specific kind of T/O map being the correct one.
Normally, I would agree with you 100%.
In this book? Dunno.
Still, I fully agree that these labels in the T-O should be an obvious crib into the text. Trouble is, I've spent years on and off worrying at that T-O map, and never found a single damned thing worth telling anyone about.
I wish you more luck than I've had.
If EVA-asal is "Asia" that is hardly enough to decipher Voynichese. In my opinion, given my perspective, a few words is not nearly enough for a useful crib. I wonder if, in an unusual way, for that particular word the mapping/spelling is particularly simple whereas for many other words the structure of a "verbose" cipher is more prevalent such as we see with words beginning with EVA-o.
(03-07-2021, 06:31 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@davidjackson
I can understand you well. I have one here too. But I have no idea what it means.
But is that a T/O map, as it not just a circle, but also has the cross extended?
(03-07-2021, 06:31 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can understand you well. I have one here too. But I have no idea what it means.
One idea, since that appears to be a printed work (do you have a reference?)
A similar symbol was used by scribes, and later Venetian printers, to mark the end of their works. It meant something like the best I can do, the best in the world, and dedicated to God. What GRM stands for I have no idea (God Reads Me?
).