The Voynich Ninja

Interesting! It strikes me as relevant, as there are seven, just as there are in the rosette. I think of them as the seven seas, a figurative term for all the seas of the world, which makes perfect sense in a TO map.

This is why i see this rosette as standing for both Europe and the world in its entirety. By the time of the carbon dating, many countries or city states had spread out to Africa and Asia, so it makes sense to me to see it as both.

The term "Seven Seas" can be traced to ancient Sumer in 2300 B.C., where it was used in a hymn by Sumerian high priestess Enheduanna to Inanna, the goddess of sexual love, fertility and warfare.

In Medieval European literature, the phrase referred to the North Sea, Baltic, Atlantic, Mediterranean, Black, Red, and Arabian seas. 

I believe all of these (and more: Alboran, Balearic, Ligurian, Tyrrhenian, Adriatic, Ionian, Aegean, Caspian, Aral, Persian, etc) are referenced in quire 13, along with some of the largest lakes, mainly in Italy and Asia, along with a few gulfs and rivers.

(03-07-2021, 09:48 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-07-2021, 08:38 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One detail mostly missing here is the distinction between the standard T-O images, where the lower half has been subdivided, and the *inverted* T-O version, where the upper half is split.

The image in the top right corner looks like Carthusian symbol, which represents the world. It is split on the top half into two parts. The word ORAL is Slovenicized form of the Latin word ORA (PRAY). ORA and LABORA is the motto of Carthusians. By the way, ORAL is also Slovenian word, meaning work, ploughing.
The caption on the Carthusian symbol states that the world is turning, but the cross remains. This could also help us understand the round image in the opposite corner (bottom left) which looks like a clock. In Slovenian, the word for 'hour' or a 'clok' is ORA (sometimes also spelled as HORA, now it is spelled as URA). The writing around the circle is also suggestive of the clock (the top part is written clockwise, and the bottom part anti-clockwise). Yes, the mechanical clock has been in use in Prague at the time, and a monk in Slovenia would certainly be aware of that.


Depends upon the orientation. West was "up" when Asia is in the top half. Other T-O maps are swivelled to give North as Up.
Same with the "T". Sometimes it is the two great rivers + the Med; othertimes we see it as other bodies of water, such as this one:


(The great cold North Sea and the Med)

If you look at the traditional T-O map on a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the Orb held by Kings) you'll see that Europe is always at the top.

(03-07-2021, 10:37 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A good example reminding that the label set can be Sem, Cham, Jafeth instead of Asia, Africa, Europe

I think the TO map is inverted in the rosettes because it is pointing out the location of the rosette it leads to. I think it is a standard Europe Africa Asia setup. When the page is placed on the diagonal with the TO on top, top is not north, but northwest, as shown by the TO map acting as the reference.

The volcano stands for the Italian peninsula and sticks straight down in this orientation, when in reality it points southeast.the seven seas being on the outside, rather than the inside as they were in the TO map that Koen posted, creates a world similar to Cosmas, with a mountain (spiral) in the middle surrounded by water. 



In this representation the Italian peninsula is pointing to the front left corner of the tabernacle, (where it says Sinus), the Gurjurat area of India would be the furthest extent at the front right, partially hidden by the side wall. The far left corner of the box would be Spain with the Atlantic behind it, and behind the mountain at the middel to far right would be the North, Baltic, and Arctic seas. Place the box with the far right corner as top, and you get a similar orientation to the rosettes at a diagonal, even both suns are there.

The rosette then does double duty as central Europe by itself, with the world mountain now becoming the Alps. The rosette to the southwest is the Pyrrenes, indicated by rock iconography, with France as the causeway, to the southeast is the Aegean Sea, indicated by water motif, with the Black Sea as the causeway. At the bottom, we have Africa, specifically the source of the Nile, as indicated by the triangular motif in the small circle below it, as the furthest southern extent, or southeast, given the TO orientation, and as the case actually is when compared with the location of the upper rosette coverage. At the time, and previously, as shown by these maps, south of this location the geography was unknown.

(04-07-2021, 09:34 AM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'd note that I didn't find osal in any other rosette on the foldout, only osar and osaiin. In the same time okor, the word of the right little section of the T/O map (looking in the usual orientation of the page), occurs here at least two times, in the left top rosette and in the central one.

The same word okor can be found as star label in folio  f68r3. Is the first star in the group of two supposed to represent Gemini. If so the label can represent Castor. Developing the same hypothesis, in the rosette page it can represent Cham (Africa). Just another possibility as many others.

Questa è la mappa che indica la città di provenienza degli autori del testo. Centro italia, costa tirrenica. Tra qualche giorno depositerò il sistema che vi permetterà di leggere l'intero testo del manoscritto.
La parte centrale raffigura la celebrazione delle 4 materie di cui gli autori sono specialisti :
Erboristeria
Fisiologia
Farmacologia
Astrologia (che nel medioevo era parte integrata delka medicina)
Niente di misterioso è un'auto celebrazione, una specie di curriculum vitae.

Maria, please post in English on the forum.

I've been thinking about this some more. So we have four items on similar positions, right? Two suns, a T/O-map and something weird. How do we know that these symbolise the cardinal directions? Two suns would have to stand for east and west. This means the T/O-map, which stands for the entire earth, symbolises north or south. Isn't this absurd though? The cardinal directions point towards parts of the earth. How can the entire earth stand for one of its own quarters? Does this really make sense? 

And another question, how common would it have been to place the cardinal directions in the corners? Were two suns ever used as emblems? And if we see the rising and setting suns in their corners, would we place the earth in another?

Hello Koen! It looks absurd, I agree, in the case, if it is considered a map of the physical world. On my view, if it is a map of the world, even symbolical, it rather depicts the world in the center, similarly to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. diagram, with some special aspects in the corners. Probably, the Rosettes also show another aspects to the world, somehow connected to the cardinal points.

To me, the TO map is upside down in the open page orientation of the roettes, mirroring at the point at which it connects, which is northern Europe. That is why i maintain that the tip of the page oriented with TO map up is not north, but northwest, since the connection comes from the northwest portion of the Europe section. However in some ways it does work as north. Ignore the first drawing below, i think that is the Oresme TO which is not the continent version but rather the sphere version of unknown, habitable, and water, the continent TO would fit inside the habitable section kinda sorta. North in the TO map in the middle drawing below would be at the far right, but instead the connection comes from the north west, which to me would indicate where the UK, Netherlands, Belgium, and France are located, given that the boot of Italy along that diagonal points at the Nile delta to the south.





The south emblem to me is the source of the Nile, the southernmost point thus far known at the time, but which is quite farther south than most of the known ecumene and thus a separate emblem was used. Also the Nile goes straight north south, not on the southeast angle from the northwest indication of the TO, so that problem is also solved by using a separate emblem.

Then the other two corners are west and east where the sun sets and rises. The two suns in Cosmas is an example, he was a flat earther (but disproved his own theory with his observation) thinking the sun was nearer than we know it to be now, he thought it hid behind the main mountain of the world when not in view, which rose to the north to create the climates. His maps of the world were some of the first drawn that we still have today (rather than described) and also oriented with north up, so there could be some correlation there.

(28-12-2021, 12:27 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Then the other two corners are west and east where the sun sets and rises.

I think pictures 7 and 8 in your image example shows the same principle (tradition?) of depicting the sinking and rising sun as the Rosettes page does.