The Voynich Ninja

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I tried to learn Finnish once. Yikes.

I thought after learning some Asian (Korean and a tiny bit of Japanese) that Finnish might be easier but it wasn't. I struggled and never got past a basic appreciation of how pieces are put together. With enough time I could probably learn it, but it would take much longer than many languages and there aren't enough hours in the day.

It is interesting, however, the way endings are constructed.
So I'm reading Koen's post and my first thought is "what does beame mean in Middle English?" And yet I see that the word is Dutch, "would assent" Big Grin (Kidding, Koen, kidding!!)

It's funny that JKP and Koen both mention more Germanic words and fewer French/Romance words in Middle English, yet both words in my [qokeedy qokeedy qokeedy] = "neecə neecə neecə" = "nece nece neece" idea come from French. The Norman / French influence on the English language was a long process.

More Middle English than Finnish, yes. It so happens I have an interest in Uralic (Finno-Ugric), Eskimo-Aleut, and other circumpolar languages, so I actually studied Finnish for a year at university level as well as independently. It's much harder than a Germanic or Romance foreign language, to be sure, but in my opinion not necessarily all that much harder than other foreign languages for an English speaker. The main issue is that it's not really necessary to learn it, unless you literally intend to live in Finland. If for some reason it became practically necessary to learn it, it actually wouldn't be terribly more difficult to learn than Russian, and it would probably be objectively easier than Korean. The difference is that Korean is much more practically useful, so the practical motivation is there for Korean in a way that it just can't be for Finnish. The authors of my Finnish language learning textbook invented a brilliant scenario where a South African, a Russian, and a Brazilian are living in Finland, and literally the only way they can communicate is in Finnish -- the Brazilian only speaks Portuguese, so the South African can't even use the Spanish that he studied! But to be honest this is a rather unlikely scenario.

I can tell you that in the United States, the average English speaker can surely read more Spanish than Middle English, because it's hard to escape some exposure to Spanish in most places, and because so many words are cognate due to the extremely heavy influence of French and Latin on modern English and on our non-basic vocabulary in particular. Of course this only holds true for modern Spanish, not for say reading Cervantes, and not for medieval Spanish.
(11-04-2021, 11:46 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That is not to say that I can just pick up a Middle Dutch text and understand every word

I have been told that it is easier for people from West-Vlaanderen (the province of West Flanders) Wink
(12-04-2021, 05:24 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(11-04-2021, 11:46 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That is not to say that I can just pick up a Middle Dutch text and understand every word

I have been told that it is easier for people from West-Vlaanderen (the province of West Flanders) Wink

Sayeth the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:

"'t West-Vlams en 't You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. zyn de directe upvolgers van et You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. da gesprookn wos in 't middeleeuwsche You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Da kwam e bitj overêen mei wuk da nu de provinsjes You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. en You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. zyn in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., en mei de You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. regio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ("Fransch Vlaemsch").
't Ollereêste West-Vlams geschreevn tekstjie:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
hebban olla vogala nestas hagunnan
hinase hi(c ) (e)nda thu
uu(at) unbida(n) (uu)e nu
Da wil zegn:
"Olle veugels zyn met under nestn begunn
beolve ik en gy.
Woar wachtn we nog ip?"
't Grotste stik van de You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. es in 't Vlams en 't You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. geschreevn. Da komt omdat in de 13e en 14e eeuwe et literaire zwoartepunt in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. en You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. lag.
Et You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. es de verzoamelienge van de You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. streektoaln die deur de platselike bevolkienge woarn gesprookn in grote dêeln van de You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in de periode van 1150 tot 1500.
Bekende Middelnederlandsche werkn lik You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. en de werkn van You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (lik You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) zyn ollemoale in 't Vlams geschreevn."
(12-04-2021, 05:24 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have been told that it is easier for people from West-Vlaanderen (the province of West Flanders) Wink

More like Middle Dutch is easier to understand than West Vlaams  Big Grin

It's probably true, especially since one of the most commonly read works, the Reynaert, is in a western dialect. I wonder though if the advantage still holds for the younger generations, who are increasingly growing up with a regional form of standard Dutch rather than a full dialect.
I know someone who studied Germanic languages in Kortrijk, and it was a standing joke among students that those from West-Vlaanderen had an unfair advantage.
(12-04-2021, 10:19 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.More like Middle Dutch is easier to understand than West Vlaams  Big Grin

It's probably true, especially since one of the most commonly read works, the Reynaert, is in a western dialect. I wonder though if the advantage still holds for the younger generations, who are increasingly growing up with a regional form of standard Dutch rather than a full dialect.

Since the end of World War II, standardized national state languages have been extending their reach and dominance at the expense of regional dialects and languages everywhere. As they say, "A language is a dialect with an army." Those regional languages and dialects without their own armies, nation-states, and governments are endangered just about everywhere. Efforts to preserve local languages and dialects have gotten better in recent decades, but whole generations lost them from about 1945-1990. It is very difficult for a language or dialect to recover from such a generational loss of transmission.
Here ye, here ye!

Ye wollen Englisch, her hit is:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Here begynneth the nece neeces (wyfes of Bathes?) tale.

EVA:
[kchedy kary ... okeey qokar shy kchedy qotar shedy]

Germanic reading system:
"[t]iecə tarə ... deeə nar [s+i]ə tiecə mar [sh]ecə"


Middle English (all attested spellings):
"thiese thare ... dei navr sie[n], thiese mar shece[n]"


Middle English more common spellings:
"thiese thare ... thei never sien, thiese mor shaken"

modern English translation:
"these there ... they never sink, these more float"


Note: JKP, the [-n]'s on the plural verb forms are for thee, since I woot thou must hate to see them without the [-n]'s like a poor knave's common 16th century Early Modern English plural verb forms. But to be frank I mot admit I cannot clearly identify final [-n]'s -- at all -- in this system of reading the characters/units, since EVA [q] marks all nasal sounds and it is only vord-initial, navr vord-final. The only solution would to be to treat EVA [y] as an all-encompassing abbreviation marker, which can represent "-en" in these plural verb forms, but simply "-e" in other forms in this line and elsewhere.

Geoffrey C.
I am pleased to be able to provide a second line of this Middle English reading of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .

But the best part is that I may now interpret the ubiquitous vord EVA [chedy] as ... drumroll please ... English "yes" !! Big Grin

You have to admit it makes a lot of sense to have the word "yes!" all over the place in the bathing women story, but not so much in the more "technical" sections of the manuscript. (This interpretation would imply that the last section may not actually be "Recipes", but rather some sort of text containing dialogue...) But [chedy], I know there are still issues to be resolved with this interpretation: Is it not just a Dialect A vs. B difference, etc. (Maybe Dialect B is English, but Dialect A is not?)

Anyway, here are the first two lines of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. according to this Middle English interpretation:

EVA:
[kchedy kary ... okeey qokar shy kchedy qotar shedy]
[dain shey ly ... ssheol qolchedy chedykar chekeedy ror]


Germanic reading system:
" tiecə tarə ... deeə nar {s+i}ə tiecə mar {sh}ecə "
" cu {s+i}eə sə ... l{i+s}eəs nəsiecə iecətar ieteecə rər "


Middle English (all attested spellings):
" thiese thare ... dei na[v]r sie[s], thiese mar shece[s] "
" suo sie[s] se ... licius neisses yese thar yetes rer' "


Middle English more common spellings:
thiese thare ... thei never sien, thiese mor shaken "
so seieth se ... licius neces thiese thar yeten rere "


modern English translation:
"these there ... they never sink, these more float"
"so says she ... luscious nieces these there flow behind"


Notes: JKP, my justification for all the "-es" verb endings (in my attested spellings version that is intended to represent the actual form of the text) is that this represents a Northern Middle English dialect, in which both the 3rd person singular and the general plural verb ending was indeed "-es". I admit that a Northern dialect would not be my first expectation to be the basis of a ms that ends up in Bohemia, but who knows, maybe the Bohemian student ("Hand 2"?) visiting London met some Northerners there and picked up their dialect before returning to Prague, bringing the inspiration of Wycliffe to the Hussite cause and some of the Northern English dialect to his part of the Voynich manuscript text? 

The argument for this ending "-es" is that it appears explicitly, according to my interpretation, in the plural verb form "yetes" (EVA [chekeedy]), implying that "sie[s]" and "shece[s]" in the preceding line should logically have the same plural ending. Since this dialect has the same "-es" ending for 3rd person singular verb forms, it is consistent to apply it to "sie[s]" in the second line as well, though here it means "(she) says" rather than "(they) sink"! Middle English just like modern English was replete with numerous homonyms, and they can well be applied with humorous effect throughout a story such as this one. Indeed a surfeit of puns and homonyms would be one good logical explanation for the "repetitive" nature of the vords in the Voynich ms text. 

To note another possible example of an intentional word form alteration for literary effect, at first sight it appears inconsistent to change the spelling of "thiese" to "yese" (meaning the same thing, "these") just one line apart, but this may be an intentional alliteration with "yetes" in the second line, just as we see alliteration in the beginning words of both lines. If the author was aware of the numerous various alternative spellings of many English words, he could have deliberately used multiple such forms of the same words in the same text, in order to better create various puns, plays on words, alliteration, and other literary effects as needed throughout the text.

Geoffrey C.
I can't look at this in detail until later, but geography is almost irrelevant. People moved around (especially those who were literate). They often attended two or three different universities in different countries/city-states and then found work in yet another location.
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