Whilst not everyone believes the Voynich manuscript is European in origin my impression is that this is the dominant view.(Now is the moment when I am told how many people think it may not be European in origin.)
Assuming it is European in origin and assuming that the carbon dating dates are correct I thought it interesting to explore what a history of Europe from 1404-1438 might be depending on what events are thought to be important in the time and not incidental. (I am sure it can be debated what constitutes "important" events and what doesn't, but I hope not to get sidetracked into this discussion and away from real historical events.)
Now it could be argued that the major events of history probably had little bearing or relation to the Voynich, but who knows?
(16-01-2021, 08:27 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(Now is the moment when I am told how many people think it may not be European in origin.)
Actually I think the idea that the VM was made in Europe may be the least controversial one of all. Does anyone currently on the forum believe that it was most likely made outside of Europe?
This is a good idea for a thread. The first event I can think of is the You are not allowed to view links.
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Quote:The Council of Constance was a 15th-century ecumenical council recognized by the Catholic Church, held from 1414 to 1418 in the Bishopric of Constance in present-day Germany. The council ended the Western Schism by deposing or accepting the resignation of the remaining papal claimants and by electing Pope Martin V.
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@Mark
Good approach.
When I look at the time given ( 1400-1440 ) the references in the VM and the history of the time and the circumstances of how it came about.
Statements by other people are also taken into account.
Thus, in my opinion, the origin of the VM lies in these areas. Whereby green is the most probable.
I fail to see the point of this scattergun approach. Lots of things happened in Western Europe. Some things had repercussions throughout Europe for all classes, others just for the elites and the importance of other events would only become apparent later.
The Western Papal Schism is a fairly important thing that most people would have heard of at the time. There is no sign of papal infighting in the book.
You have the very beginning of the Protestant Reformation starting to appear throughout the century.
The Hundred Years War racked much of western Europe for the first half of the century as England and France dragged their periphery kingdoms into battle.
The mini crusades to the Iberian Peninsula and the rise of the Spanish kingdoms that would coalesce into the mid-century Kingdom of Spain (along the way, lots of exciting things such as the conquest of the Canary Isles).
I don't know. The Polish Wars and the collapse of the Teutonic knights?
Joan of Arc?
I can't really think of anything else at the moment. But I can't think of any imagery that would appear to be linked to obviously contemporary issues in the Voynich. Quite the contrary, the imagery appears to be based upon the previous century, even if some of the design elements are 15the century (costume, archer, etc).
(16-01-2021, 08:43 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The first event I can think of is the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which tells us about the situation of the Church in those days:
I created a thread about the
Chronicle of the Council of Constance You are not allowed to view links.
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Perhaps one should not look at it as what happened between 1400-1440. But rather what happened up to 1440.
Example:
Why does the castle in northern Italy bear today's Austrian coat of arms? ( Sorry Rene, I need your picture again, but it's really great. )
Why do I also see the same coat of arms on a grave in Basel ?
The places are not exactly next to each other.
If you compare this with the course of history, things become clear.
It is certain that there is a connection between the crown and the battlements around 1400. This can also be seen in the VM. I can no longer ignore it.
My thoughts on this are pretty much aligned with davidjackson's first paragraph:
Important to whom?
Yes there are major, famous events, the best known have been listed above.
But that does not necessarily mean that other, lesser known events may have been more relevant, pressing, or consequential to the specific group that made the Voynich manuscript. How could we know what was important to them when we don't know who they are?
Another thing we don't know is whether the Voynich might be a version of older material. For all we know, it may be an adaptation of something originally created say in the 13th century or some other time.
So while the C14 provides an end date for such a timeline, the start date is uncertain.
(16-01-2021, 09:55 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I fail to see the point of this scattergun approach.
I can't really think of anything else at the moment.
But I can't think of any imagery that would appear to be linked to obviously contemporary issues in the Voynich. Quite the contrary, the imagery appears to be based upon the previous century, even if some of the design elements are 15the century (costume, archer, etc).
Your response is exactly the kind of response that I was concerned about, namely denying the validity or relevance of the question. I fail to understand the eagerness of some people to comment only to undermine the basis of the question.
If someone were to come onto Voynich Ninja and go on about how people are wasting their time researching the Voynich and how they should devote their to the study of other manuscripts, I doubt it would be appreciated.
There are plenty of threads to comment on if someone does not think this relevant they don't need to comment. But to comment to say it is irrelevant is just frankly annoying.(I considered putting this comment on my initial post as I anticipated that some people might be inclined to undermine to purpose of the thread.)
(16-01-2021, 11:10 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Important to whom?
Yes there are major, famous events, the best known have been listed above.
But that does not necessarily mean that other, lesser known events may have been more relevant, pressing, or consequential to the specific group that made the Voynich manuscript. How could we know what was important to them when we don't know who they are?
Another thing we don't know is whether the Voynich might be a version of older material. For all we know, it may be an adaptation of something originally created say in the 13th century or some other time.
So while the C14 provides an end date for such a timeline, the start date is uncertain.
I anticipated the "Important to who question". If you were a medieval peasant then the events of your own life would be more important than major political events. So of course important is a subjective word. However if I were to buy a book called "European History from 1404 to 1438" it would not focus on the life of one ordinary peasant.
In this question, I have nowhere stated that the knowing the main events of European History from 1404 to 1438 will answer all the questions relating to the Voynich. However I would doubt that anyone can say with confidence that they are irrelevant.
Important or big events have certainly happened all over Europe.
But where are the references in the VM ? I don't see any where I could classify them as important.