The Voynich Ninja

This thread is meant as a thought experiment. I like to do those as an exercise to expand the box that inevitably starts to form around my VM thoughts. It is not about what we believe to be possible, but about what we could expect under certain conditions.

I usually think from images to text, that is, if we can understand the imagery perfectly, we should in theory have a better shot at understanding the text. But what if we turn this around? There are various scenarios for what the text is like. What should we expect of the images if - just for this exercise - we assume that they are the same as the text, informed by the same principles? For example:

1. The text could be an illiterate culture/language's first attempt at writing in its own writing system. In this case, and remember that for this exercise we imagine that the images belong to the same sphere as the text, what would we expect? Every culture has an artistic component, this was already true in the Stone Age. So we would expect part of that artistic tradition to shine through in the imagery. If we take into account the stylistic properties of Voynichese, chances are this culture is not European - probably Asian? So given the premise of this thread, the imagery should have Asian influences. But it doesn't, at least not in an in-your-face way. So if we have Asian text, with non-Asian images, what happened?
   
   
2. A one-to-one simple substitution of a European language. Just kidding, this is an unlikely option.
   
   
3. A more complex cipher. I use the word cipher here with purpose, because it carries within it the intention to obfuscate. If the same principles apply to the imagery, this would mean it is obfuscated as well, it does not speak plainly. Whether this is done out of fear, secrecy, exercise or boredom doesn't really matter. If the imagery is like a complex cipher, what can we expect of it?
   
   
4. Nonsense made to look like it has meaning. In this case, given the condition that text and imagery are the same, both would be like a well-constructed Rorschach test.
   
   

I probably missed a few?

With the VM, we are facing the longest, most enigmatic pre-modern undeciphered text, and its imagery is equally hard to understand. If the entire MS is the product one one mind (or, as we know with near certainty now, a collective of minds), then may similar principles underlie the strangeness of both?

(26-08-2020, 09:31 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A one-to-one simple substitution of a European language. Just kidding, this is an unlikely option.

Koen, can you affirm that you master all European languages, even the extinct ones?

(26-08-2020, 09:31 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

1. A more complex cipher. I use the word cipher here with purpose, because it carries within it the intention to obfuscate. If the same principles apply to the imagery, this would mean it is obfuscated as well, it does not speak plainly. Whether this is done out of fear, secrecy, exercise or boredom doesn't really matter. If the imagery is like a complex cipher, what can we expect of it?

A symbolic representation of the operation of the cipher, hidden in plain sight, for starters...

(26-08-2020, 02:15 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Koen, can you affirm that you master all European languages, even the extinct ones?

No. What I can confirm though, it that I am aware of the language families that existed in 15th century Europe. The statistics we know about Voynichese are so powerful that we can use them to eliminate entire language types. There is no need to know every single dialect. It cannot be a Germanic language written in the plain, nor Romance, nor Slavic, and so on.

What could have happened is that a language was written in an entirely novel way. That the whole writing system was changed, not just the shape of the glyphs. But in that case, we are really in "complex" cipher territory and we can no longer assume simple substitution. 

Bottom line is, if we want Voynichese to be a European language, we also have to take into account that the conversion is likely more complex than one-to-one substitution.

(26-08-2020, 02:33 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(26-08-2020, 09:31 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

1. A more complex cipher. I use the word cipher here with purpose, because it carries within it the intention to obfuscate. If the same principles apply to the imagery, this would mean it is obfuscated as well, it does not speak plainly. Whether this is done out of fear, secrecy, exercise or boredom doesn't really matter. If the imagery is like a complex cipher, what can we expect of it?
   

A symbolic representation of the operation of the cipher, hidden in plain sight, for starters...

Hi, Nablator:
I actually ran across a proposal exactly along these lines that I'd like to share.  When I read it, I thought, that just could be possible.  

[attachment=4704]

Patrick Feaster suggested on his blog that this might be the representation of the encoding process.  He has developed a system that encodes "Voynich-like" script using an encoding board (that records the plain text letters) and using movement of a marker, that he names a "jeton."  The encoding process involves turning the board at various times.  Obviously he is not the first nor the last to do this, and his system doesn't work precisely, I did find do find his work refreshingly concrete and well explained.  

Although in presenting his theory about what the illustration at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was he was more abstract and applicable to the problem at hand (e.g. pictorially how to encode the cipher, turn the board, etc.), I thought it could well just represent the author(s) in the act of creating the manuscript.  Four creators crowded around a board (albeit a weird, scalloped-shape board, but it is the Voynich, after all), outstretched arms maybe representing working together(?), with a round "jeton" placed in the middle, directing the next glyph.

[attachment=4705]

All Hail the Jeton!

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(26-08-2020, 09:31 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

1. The text could be an illiterate culture/language's first attempt at writing in its own writing system. In this case, and remember that for this exercise we imagine that the images belong to the same sphere as the text, what would we expect? Every culture has an artistic component, this was already true in the Stone Age. So we would expect part of that artistic tradition to shine through in the imagery. If we take into account the stylistic properties of Voynichese, chances are this culture is not European - probably Asian? So given the premise of this thread, the imagery should have Asian influences. But it doesn't, at least not in an in-your-face way. So if we have Asian text, with non-Asian images, what happened?
   I probably missed a few?

Hi, Koen:
I'd like to propose a variation on 1  -- let's say 1(a) -- that I personally find more likely.  

It wouldn't shock me if the Voynich is an expression of a culture (both text and imagery) not of an illiterate group but of a group holding a particular belief system.  This belief system is such that it necessitates the encoding of the text, either because of fear of prosecution or a general desire to keep out those "not deserving" of the knowledge (like Latin knowledge had been doing at the time).  

I know this has been suggested many times, but it seems that there were many "splinter" groups at the time of the carbon dating and I would not be surprised if the VM could be the outward expression of more mainline European scientific beliefs (such as they were) but seen "fractured" through their group's particular belief system.  Thus, this would suggest that if the tilting of the manuscript's imagery away from things more commonly seen at the time can be described concretely, this collection of "shifts" could be used to describe a belief system held by the authors and in that way it just might be possible to find a group holding with these beliefs.

I realize this is highly subjective and abstract and certainly not original -- but it was the first slightly different approach to your thought experiment that came to mind.  Thanks for sharing it!

(26-08-2020, 03:36 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The statistics we know about Voynichese are so powerful that we can use them to eliminate entire language types.

Excuse me, Koen, I had to skip this moment of irrefutable proof that this is not a language spoken or written in Europe in the 15th century. Of course it changes a lot of things.

Michelle: out of my (2) follows that this possibility is actually covered by (3)

(26-08-2020, 07:56 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Michelle: out of my (2) follows that this possibility is actually covered by (3)

Ah, OK - all ciphers in one class - got it.  I would then observe that the reason for the ciphering would impact the kind of imagery that would accompany it, then.

Like suggested above, you would perhaps expect a different kind of parallel imagery depending on whether the ciphering was done to escape persecution (quick thought: if you’re that concerned about detection, l would argue no imagery would be a smarter move - it would definitely get less notice, although maybe be an imperfect “expression”).

But if the reason for encoding is to allow access only to the “initiated” and the imagery followed the same pattern, l agree with JKP that hiding the message would be expected.