05-01-2020, 11:18 PM
05-01-2020, 11:32 PM
06-01-2020, 11:17 PM
British Library, Add. MS 28681, folio 9v
This is another example of a T/O list map.
One thing my argument would imply is that the rosettes T/O map was drawn before the T/O on f68v3 or the author would have to have foreseen the drawing of the rosettes T/O map when drawing the f68v3 one, which seems a little farfetched.
This is another example of a T/O list map.
One thing my argument would imply is that the rosettes T/O map was drawn before the T/O on f68v3 or the author would have to have foreseen the drawing of the rosettes T/O map when drawing the f68v3 one, which seems a little farfetched.
06-01-2020, 11:30 PM
I think one thing that occurs to me as a strong argument we have a T/O map is a simple one: if one selected at random a drawing of a circle which has been subdivided in half and one half subdivided into quarters with writing in it, particularly when there is only 1 word in each section then what is the probability it would be an Africa-Europe-Asia T/O map? This kind of argument certainly fits with the rosettes T/O map. Similarly with the "Asia" list. Why should one hypotheses a completely new type of Medieval representation when an existing ones fit so well. Take the "Air","Earth" and "Water" idea have we ever seen a T/O with those 3 written in? If there are any they are very rare whilst those with "Africa", "Europe" and "Asia" are very common.
08-01-2020, 12:19 AM
So, there it is in post #66. The exception to the 'rule' that inverted T-O structures are not maps, because that clearly is an inverted T-O map. It has cities.
The real question is, what is going on in the VMs? It is not a map. It is not a Ptolemaic cosmos. However it clearly has stars an a cosmic boundary, so it has to be a cosmos of some kind. The cosmic boundary also has the same 43 undulations as the Oresme illustration of BNF Fr. 565 fo. 23 and other structural similarities.
Nick Pelling did some investigation of Oresme back in Oct 2017 (IIRC). I believe Oresme's text was a translation of Aristotle.
The real question is, what is going on in the VMs? It is not a map. It is not a Ptolemaic cosmos. However it clearly has stars an a cosmic boundary, so it has to be a cosmos of some kind. The cosmic boundary also has the same 43 undulations as the Oresme illustration of BNF Fr. 565 fo. 23 and other structural similarities.
Nick Pelling did some investigation of Oresme back in Oct 2017 (IIRC). I believe Oresme's text was a translation of Aristotle.
08-01-2020, 07:22 AM
08-01-2020, 01:50 PM
(08-01-2020, 12:19 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, there it is in post #66. The exception to the 'rule' that inverted T-O structures are not maps, because that clearly is an inverted T-O map. It has cities.
The real question is, what is going on in the VMs? It is not a map. It is not a Ptolemaic cosmos. However it clearly has stars an a cosmic boundary, so it has to be a cosmos of some kind. The cosmic boundary also has the same 43 undulations as the Oresme illustration of BNF Fr. 565 fo. 23 and other structural similarities.
Nick Pelling did some investigation of Oresme back in Oct 2017 (IIRC). I believe Oresme's text was a translation of Aristotle.
When you say it is not a map then do you mean the drawing as a whole is not a map or that the T/O is not a map? As I think it very likely for a variety of reasons that the T/O is a map.
I will check out the translation of the Oresme page that Linda refers to. I am still rather dubious that that T/O does not represent Africa-Europe-Asia. If it represents Air-Earth-Water why does does "air" look as visually unlike air as one can imagine(maybe very polluted air).
08-01-2020, 01:58 PM
(08-01-2020, 07:22 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.#
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Hope that helps R Sale
Did you track down the specific page(s) of the document where it says the original text says that the T/O represents Air-Earth-Water?
08-01-2020, 02:36 PM
08-01-2020, 02:39 PM
(03-01-2020, 07:12 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can see that interpretation, but look at the text of Oresme in du ciel et du monde book 2 chapter 25, he states the habitable part of earth would be on the upper right, although you are right, he says it is the part where they reside, which would make it Europe as well.
Well spotted! (p. 533)
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the vicomte de Santarem's book Essai sur l'histoire de la cosmographie et de la cartographie pendant le moyen âge, et sur les progrès de la géographie après les grandes découvertes du XVe siècle (1852) tentatively links the lower half, covered with water, to Arab geographers' ideas (Al Idrissi and Abu al-Fida). A hand-drawn copy of the illustration was first printed in his Atlas des monuments cartographiques du moyen âge.