The Voynich Ninja

(03-01-2020, 12:54 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-01-2020, 12:28 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There's no problem in pursuing the "face value" approach (i.e. the labels are the continent names), I just wanted to hint the possible pitfalls.

Re swapping: yes, not frequent, but I've seen Europe and Africa swapped. Can't find the thread right now.

Ah, dug that out. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and subsequent comments.

Thanks a lot for that Anton!

(03-01-2020, 12:17 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark, for a couple of centuries intelligent people have been looking at the VMS, trying to figure it out and probably 90% of them recognize a T-O yet I haven't seen a credible translation of the "labels" in those three slots.

Obviously a crib of about 3 words is unlikely to lead to a decipherment in and of itself. The fact that the Voynich has uptill now not been deciphered does not mean one should give up the attempt. More to the point are you aware of a previous discussion of the precise topic that I refer to, if it is so commonplac  i.e. f68v3 and rosettes T/O comparison?

Commonplace? I don't know, but it seems to me like it would be. Comparing the text in the two different T-O illustrations was one of the first things I did after looking at the rosettes folio.

Here is a blog post from 10 years ago. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I have flip flopped between thinking the word sets are too different, and still seeing the similarities as important. Currently i think there is enough similarity between the two TO map legends to look further into the comparisons. There may be clues in the differences. Others have mentioned certain equivalencies being apparent, abbreviations, etc.

Also, the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. version's similarity with the Oresme Cosmos seems relevant to me. I had long thought of the words as meaning Europe Africa and Asia, but it would seem that the elements are involved rather than the continents, if we are to follow this view. Or is it that each view tells its own part in the story?

We can take it another step further, gathering in the texts related to this drawing, and apply Nicole Oresme's teachings, especially where he differs from Aristotle, to the diagram.

The inverse TO in comparison with the other in the rosettes (at least in the orientation presented, although once turned, the lettering is closer to the rosettes, but on an angle...more about that later) might indicate movement, that the standard position of the T in the O represents only a moment of time from a viewpoint outside the sphere. While navigating the rosettes page in order to read it, the TO map turns with the page.

Oresme thought that what is outside the sphere of the cosmic world (including stars and planets) is immeasureable and equates to God. We know the swirl symbol as meaning infinity from various civilizations, this fits with many religious ideas of God.

Or, the swirl could indicate infinite motion. There is also a third TO map on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 3 drawn on an angle, which could also signify motion. The angle of the text in the rosettes version may have similar implications. They all turn with their respective page texts, if you move the page and not yourself, with each page a closer view of the earth; from geocentric cosmos, to geographic ecumene, to geologic time.

Half the swirl curves connect to  the cloud band and half to the circle of earth. This could mean that as opposed to Oresme, the makers of the vms believe the earth turns, rather than the sky. The curves protrude on an angle that seems to be similar to earth's tilt of approx 23 degrees. Could precession of the equinoxes be depicted? Ie the world turns in two different ways, daily motion vs the great year. This connects with the ages of the zodiac section as well.

If we compare to the Oresme orb, we get something other than continents: earth ( half habitable) and water, surrounded by air and (invisible) fire. 

In that way it is the ecumene which is pointed out by the rosettes TO. This seems like the contents could be comparable to a portolan chart or mappa mundi. The habitable earth generally has water nearby. Quire 13 takes to that issue in my view.



I don't know what the words are supposed to be, or why they look similar but not the same. I am hoping there is a purpose behind it all.

These are the three elements earth, water and fire.

This was already discussed at some length in this forum.

In the Oresme diagram, earth is represented by a landscape (possibly with paradise in a corner).
The top left is fire.

(03-01-2020, 01:50 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These are the three elements earth, water and fire.

This was already discussed at some length in this forum.

In the Oresme diagram, earth is represented by a landscape (possibly with paradise in a corner).
The top left is fire.

Where is your source for this?

I have seen a similar drawing except what you say is fire is represented quite differently, not at all like fire.

I have found the following:

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I don't know if that is what you are referring to. From my reading so far this interpretation is stated, but not justified.

(03-01-2020, 01:50 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These are the three elements earth, water and fire.

This was already discussed at some length in this forum.

In the Oresme diagram, earth is represented by a landscape (possibly with paradise in a corner).
The top left is fire.

Have a look at the following T/O map in the bottom right corner.

(Can be found at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)

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(03-01-2020, 02:45 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-01-2020, 01:50 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These are the three elements earth, water and fire.

This was already discussed at some length in this forum.

In the Oresme diagram, earth is represented by a landscape (possibly with paradise in a corner).
The top left is fire.

Have a look at the following T/O map in the bottom right corner.

(Can be found at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)

In this instance the bottom looks very similar, neither the top left or top right look like fire. I would say that Africa is just represented in a different way.

These figures exist in many different forms, also with four parts.
It is just possible that the upper left quadrant in Oresme's figure is air rather than fire.

However, the topic is cosmology and the elements.

Here's another Ninja thread:
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(03-01-2020, 03:01 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These figures exist in many different forms, also with four parts.
It is just possible that the upper left quadrant in Oresme's figure is air rather than fire.

However, the topic is cosmology and the elements.

Here's another Ninja thread:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I have browsed these two threads and there are statements as to what each thing represents, but it is unclear as to what the evidence supporting these statements is. Are there sources saying this represents that and this represents that etc. ? Or are these someone's theories?

Are you saying that the T/O map I included above represents Earth, Air, Water? If so how do you justify that?(I can obviously read the German saying it is the world in the quote"Da ist die welt indrvi tail get", but am unsure as to how to read the rest of the text round the T/O) If you think it is not Earth, Air and Water how can you explain the similarity with the Oresme drawing?