(04-04-2019, 01:43 PM)rasiratros Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (04-04-2019, 06:09 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Okay, here are some samples that are close. There are probably some with even closer matches to Agrippa or the VMS text in terms of individual letters, but these are the ones with an OVERALL score of similarity.
Your sample at the top of the thread is in German and the one I sampled is Latin, but it's the same handwriting. I used a folio from the University of Leipzig.
![[Image: AgrippaHandComparison.png]](https://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/AgrippaHandComparison.png)
There are a couple of samples in this group that score approximately the same, but they use double-story "a" exclusively, and since Agrippa doesn't do that, I didn't include them. The VMS, however, might have a double-story "a" in the same handwriting as the last page (top of folio 17r).
I didn't include scores for slant, spacing, etc., but Agrippa's handwriting is spaced much tighter (the letters are closer together) than the handwriting on 116v.
Note also, that the "z" at the end of the VMS-text line is probably not a "z", it might be the rotated-m abbreviation symbol (17r), but many scribes wrote "z" and rotated-m the same way, so I include it for reference.
Hello and thank you for answer. after many comparisons of midieval handwriting and VM, I came to the conclusion that without professional graphological analysis nothing can be said for sure. I also create a scale as a percentage, but then a lot of facts made me give up the comparison: 1. I do not have exactly the same tools for creating a manuscript, where I could check the difference between my handwriting and writing on paper. 2. The last page is not a real text that is usually written, it looks like an exercise or a drafting game. I also tried to do it on paper and saw that the width between the letters is different from my usual handwriting. the same applied to the inclination and shape of the letters. [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I realized that the text on the last page [font=Verdana]f116v should also be considered in a table with percentages of no more than 80%. I decided to intensify my guesswork and I want to turn to a parchment specialist. In my country it is called "sofer". I know this is not real graph analysis, but it can also clarify a lot for me if the author is not Agrippa.[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]maby should compare last page with german Agrippa's letters, i think it would be interesting. i can do it and we'll discuss?[/font][/font]
i just do this fast. manny glifs i haven't put because i'm not quite sure what they are. first three lines marked blue line. German version
![[Image: Agrippa-Hand-Comparison1.jpg]](https://i.ibb.co/8d0zV8f/Agrippa-Hand-Comparison1.jpg)
I noticed that the variant of writing the same letters may be different. I think it happens to everyone who writes. so now i understand i can hardly say the matching %. i dont know how to measure.
(04-04-2019, 02:11 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (04-04-2019, 01:43 PM)rasiratros Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]...[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]maby should compare last page with german Agrippa's letters, i think it would be interesting. i can do it and we'll discuss?[/font][/font]
I do not know if digitized letters from Agrippa von Nettesheim can be found on the internet, but any comparison would be on a secure footing as far as the handwriting is concerned. The uncertainty when comparing with MS. 517 of the Wellcome Historical Medical Library would be eliminated.
your native language are german? is that so can you roughly say are some words not real or many times repeat?
Well, the page is written in Dutch, obviously: "een", "van", etc.
Ha! You're right, it's certainly Dutch, not German. The final paragraph begins "Ghi sult weden (?) dat een deel van..." = "You will know (?) that a part of..."
Quote:I don't think the first page was completely filled. I think this is the beginning of the table of contents of the hymnal, which was never written. Author VM took the parchment (not the fact that he bought it), he needed to scrape off only the right side of the announcement. If you look at the Psalter by link (for example), you can see exactly the same table of contents and also find a few glifs that were used in the VM. This may be directly related to the place of writing the VM, its origin and explain many of the drawings in the VM. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Yes, I see what you mean, but once again, one would not spoil the very first page of his work by writing it on a used vellum sheet. Furthermore, it is somewhat doubtful that it's been really scraped out, the fact is that Voynich himself applied chemicals to this folio in order to reveal what's hidden, and he only made things worse with the de Tepenec's signature, and quite likely this was the case with these alphabetical rows.
The link that you provide shows glyphs not specifically used in the VM, but just common Arabic numbers - like they were used to be written back then. In fact, many Voynichese glyphs are not genuine, but are well-known shapes used in contemporary Latin (and even non-Latin) shorthand. Much can be found on this subject in this Forum.
About the VMS dating, many things, and not just carbon dating, point to 15th century. The costumes, the handwriting... this has been discussed in the Forum as well. Considering it a later product dangerously balances on the Ockham's razor edge and takes us into the realm of theories as Janick & Tucker's, of which there can be many, so then the question arises - why Agrippa in the first place? Why not Paracelsus, or Rabelais, or alii? Agrippa was a magician and alchemist, and there is not a bit of alchemic symbolics in the VMS, except perhaps for the capital "M" in You are not allowed to view links.
Register or
Login to view. which designates noone knows what.
All in all, I consider searching for the Agrippa's trail a bit of a vain pursuit.
Yes, my mistake for saying German. I said German because some dialects of Middle Low German and medieval Dutch are so similar I sometimes forget Dutch is a separate language. I can read medieval Dutch more easily than modern Dutch because of all the similarities to Middle Low German.
In the Medieval context, the difference is somewhat artificial since there was a continuum of Germanic dialects. Certain authors who were active in the border regions can be "claimed" by both Dutch and German literature. In this case, however, the language seems to rule out Agrippa entirely.
I'll try to find out more about the text I sampled in Latin. It was a while ago and I remember I had difficulty finding anything at all written by Agrippa.
Eventually searches led me to a one-folio fragment (I think... if I remember correctly) at the University of Leipzig. I'm pretty sure it was Cornelius Agrippa but... it looks like the same handwriting as the Dutch samples, so I will try to backtrack and see what I can find out about the Latin piece.
I do remember that I wasn't certain that it was actually written by him, that it might be a scribe, but the rest is long enough ago that my memory is fuzzy. I'll see what I can find this evening.
(04-04-2019, 05:19 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'll try to find out more about the text I sampled in Latin. It was a while ago and I remember I had difficulty finding anything at all written by Agrippa.
Eventually searches led me to a one-folio fragment (I think... if I remember correctly) at the University of Leipzig. I'm pretty sure it was Cornelius Agrippa but... it looks like the same handwriting as the Dutch samples, so I will try to backtrack and see what I can find out about the Latin piece.
I do remember that I wasn't certain that it was actually written by him, that it might be a scribe, but the rest is long enough ago that my memory is fuzzy. I'll see what I can find this evening.
thank you very much. i'll be waiting
(04-04-2019, 04:21 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:I don't think the first page was completely filled. I think this is the beginning of the table of contents of the hymnal, which was never written. Author VM took the parchment (not the fact that he bought it), he needed to scrape off only the right side of the announcement. If you look at the Psalter by link (for example), you can see exactly the same table of contents and also find a few glifs that were used in the VM. This may be directly related to the place of writing the VM, its origin and explain many of the drawings in the VM. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Yes, I see what you mean, but once again, one would not spoil the very first page of his work by writing it on a used vellum sheet. Furthermore, it is somewhat doubtful that it's been really scraped out, the fact is that Voynich himself applied chemicals to this folio in order to reveal what's hidden, and he only made things worse with the de Tepenec's signature, and quite likely this was the case with these alphabetical rows.
The link that you provide shows glyphs not specifically used in the VM, but just common Arabic numbers - like they were used to be written back then. In fact, many Voynichese glyphs are not genuine, but are well-known shapes used in contemporary Latin (and even non-Latin) shorthand. Much can be found on this subject in this Forum.
About the VMS dating, many things, and not just carbon dating, point to 15th century. The costumes, the handwriting... this has been discussed in the Forum as well. Considering it a later product dangerously balances on the Ockham's razor edge and takes us into the realm of theories as Janick & Tucker's, of which there can be many, so then the question arises - why Agrippa in the first place? Why not Paracelsus, or Rabelais, or alii? Agrippa was a magician and alchemist, and there is not a bit of alchemic symbolics in the VMS, except perhaps for the capital "M" in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which designates noone knows what.
All in all, I consider searching for the Agrippa's trail a bit of a vain pursuit.
thank you for you answer.
that's right I meant that, according to my opinion, author used many books to create VM. and religious literature held a special place. If we talk about the glyphs and the usual use of Arabic numerals in the Middle Ages, then some numeral borrowed from India (2), the symbol, which is also in VM. I wanted to show the connection between MV and religious literature of the end of the 15th century, and another different resources which can lead to understanding why and what for. Also i understand that many r[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]esearchers on the forum here staying for many years. But it is not always good to say that some kind of theory is simply not true, if the acceptable theory was decided and discussed at the forum. we are here to find the truth. also i haven't even start explaining my point of few on anything.[/font]