The Voynich Ninja

(03-04-2019, 09:07 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Oh no, the VMS is not a palimpsest, that's one of the things about it in which there is very little general disagreement, if any. See here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I also do not think this is a palimpsest. but it is obvious that there is another text on some pages, for example, on the first. Most likely the parchment was with a couple of filled pages. The text from which was mechanically and chemically removed.
maby he didn't buy. maby he took from monks a parchment which was meant as a hymnal

Hello, Rasiratros,

The text is similar because it's Gothic text, which was used all over England and the continent in the 15th century. It is quite close.

I'm almost certain I have sampled this, since I remember looking into Agrippa some years ago. I need to eat, then I'll look in my files and see if I have sampled and scored this handwriting. Give me twenty minutes to satisfy my growling stomach and then I'll be back with whatever I can find.

Sorry, got called away.

Yes, I remember now. This was about three years ago (maybe longer). I was trying to hunt up some of his handwriting (there were very few) and was having trouble confirming that it actually was his handwriting and not that of a scribe (a lot of people used scribes in those days).

I did eventually find one example that appears to be in his hand (as far as the holding repository is concerned). I'll put it together with some other examples so you can compare them. I'll be back as soon as I can, I have a little more work to do for a client first.

Okay, here are some samples that are close. There are probably some with even closer matches to Agrippa or the VMS text in terms of individual letters, but these are the ones with an OVERALL score of similarity.

Your sample at the top of the thread is in German and the one I sampled is Latin, but it's the same handwriting. I used a folio from the University of Leipzig.




There are a couple of samples in this group that score approximately the same, but they use double-story "a" exclusively, and since Agrippa doesn't do that, I didn't include them. The VMS, however, might have a double-story "a" in the same handwriting as the last page (top of folio 17r).

I didn't include scores for slant, spacing, etc., but Agrippa's handwriting is spaced much tighter (the letters are closer together) than the handwriting on 116v.

Note also, that the "z" at the end of the VMS-text line is probably not a "z", it might be the rotated-m abbreviation symbol (17r), but many scribes wrote "z" and rotated-m the same way, so I include it for reference.

@rasiratros: Did I understand you correctly, you think the two pages you have presented are from a text by Agrippa von Nettesheim? As Paris has stated, they are from "Miscellanea Alchemica XII". It's about miscellaneous alchemical, chemical, magical and technical receipts and notes. The author is not mentioned here.

Quote:I also do not think this is a palimpsest. but it is obvious that there is another text on some pages, for example, on the first. Most likely the parchment was with a couple of filled pages. The text from which was mechanically and chemically removed.

maby he didn't buy. maby he took from monks a parchment which was meant as a hymnal

When you buy a pack of parchment with a couple of filled pages, you won't use a filled page for the very first page of your manuscript  

This has been discussed many times before, there are several rows of Latin and Voynichese characters in the right margin of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which to all probability were left by a later owner in his attempt to decipher the text as a simple substitution cipher.

You are correct that there appear to be some extraneous writings here and there, most of them are well-discussed marginalia such as those in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or f116v, but there are also some less known marginalia discovered quite recently, check the "Marginalia" subforum.

(04-04-2019, 12:06 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Quote:I also do not think this is a palimpsest. but it is obvious that there is another text on some pages, for example, on the first. Most likely the parchment was with a couple of filled pages. The text from which was mechanically and chemically removed.

maby he didn't buy. maby he took from monks a parchment which was meant as a hymnal

When you buy a pack of parchment with a couple of filled pages, you won't use a filled page for the very first page of your manuscript  

This has been discussed many times before, there are several rows of Latin and Voynichese characters in the right margin of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which to all probability were left by a later owner in his attempt to decipher the text as a simple substitution cipher.

You are correct that there appear to be some extraneous writings here and there, most of them are well-discussed marginalia such as those in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or f116v, but there are also some less known marginalia discovered quite recently, check the "Marginalia" subforum.

I don't think the first page was completely filled. I think this is the beginning of the table of contents of the hymnal, which was never written. Author VM took the parchment (not the fact that he bought it), he needed to scrape off only the right side of the announcement. If you look at the Psalter by link (for example), you can see exactly the same table of contents and also find a few glifs that were used in the VM. This may be directly related to the place of writing the VM, its origin and explain many of the drawings in the VM. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(04-04-2019, 09:35 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@rasiratros: Did I understand you correctly, you think the two pages you have presented are from a text by Agrippa von Nettesheim? As Paris has stated, they are from "Miscellanea Alchemica XII". It's about miscellaneous alchemical, chemical, magical and technical receipts and notes. The author is not mentioned here.

 correct. indirectly, many things indicate his authorship. 100% no one can say when the author is unknown. You can compare his handwriting, his authorship of symbols and symbolography.
link where i found this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(04-04-2019, 06:09 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Okay, here are some samples that are close. There are probably some with even closer matches to Agrippa or the VMS text in terms of individual letters, but these are the ones with an OVERALL score of similarity.

Your sample at the top of the thread is in German and the one I sampled is Latin, but it's the same handwriting. I used a folio from the University of Leipzig.




There are a couple of samples in this group that score approximately the same, but they use double-story "a" exclusively, and since Agrippa doesn't do that, I didn't include them. The VMS, however, might have a double-story "a" in the same handwriting as the last page (top of folio 17r).

I didn't include scores for slant, spacing, etc., but Agrippa's handwriting is spaced much tighter (the letters are closer together) than the handwriting on 116v.

Note also, that the "z" at the end of the VMS-text line is probably not a "z", it might be the rotated-m abbreviation symbol (17r), but many scribes wrote "z" and rotated-m the same way, so I include it for reference.

Hello and thank you for answer. after many comparisons of midieval handwriting and VM, I came to the conclusion that without professional graphological analysis nothing can be said for sure. I also create a scale as a percentage, but then a lot of facts made me give up the comparison: 1. I do not have exactly the same tools for creating a manuscript, where I could check the difference between my handwriting and writing on paper. 2. The last page is not a real text that is usually written, it looks like an exercise or a drafting game. I also tried to do it on paper and saw that the width between the letters is different from my usual handwriting. the same applied to the inclination and shape of the letters. [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I realized that the text on the last page [font=Verdana]f116v should also be considered in a table with percentages of no more than 80%. I decided to intensify my guesswork and I want to turn to a parchment specialist. In my country it is called "sofer". I know this is not real graph analysis, but it can also clarify a lot for me if the author is not Agrippa.[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]maby should compare last page with german Agrippa's letters, i think it would be interesting. i can do it and we'll discuss?[/font][/font]

(04-04-2019, 01:43 PM)rasiratros Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]...[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]maby should compare last page with german Agrippa's letters, i think it would be interesting. i can do it and we'll discuss?[/font][/font]

I do not know if digitized letters from Agrippa von Nettesheim can be found on the internet, but any comparison would be on a secure footing as far as the handwriting is concerned. The uncertainty when comparing with MS. 517 of the Wellcome Historical Medical Library would be eliminated.