The Voynich Ninja

We are looking at the evolving tastes of the higher classes though, the VM Zodiac figures are all dressed like nobility. But you are right, textual sources could be of interest there as well, if a text exists that describes the attire they actually wore during fancy hunting parties for example.

I still believe though that in the case of these Zodiac emblems it is entirely justified to compare artistic practices without reference to real life. I assume that when the VM illustrator drew Virgo he copied or adapted from another work of art, rather than painting a portrait of his sister in her Sunday dress.

I was speaking of the clothing worn by the nymphs in the zodiac pages, the ones that are clothed, anyway. Do you see any deviation from the 1420 style there? What about the dress on the nymph in Gemini? That one seems special, polkadots and all. The guys seem to wear similar to male gemini, with one adding buttons or cuff links or string or some decoration to the sleeves, but the dress does not have the flowing sleeves and has a different design with panels, maybe fur?

(09-07-2019, 12:09 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... That one seems special, polkadots and all. ...

Polkadots are something very special in the Middle Ages. They would refer to a non-Western culture.

Quote:In Medieval Europe, the pattern was initially seen as very unpleasant, representing disease and impurity. Meanwhile, in Non-Western cultures, dots are viewed as symbols of male virility and magic.

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Another manuscript with relevant fashion: BNF fr. 357. I have a feeling it should have been mentioned before but my searches didn't turn anything up. It's been given a placeholder date 1301-1400 but allow me to adjust this to the early 15th century (I'd say 1420's rather than earlier).
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(09-07-2019, 12:09 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What about the dress on the nymph in Gemini? That one seems special, polkadots and all. The guys seem to wear similar to male gemini, with one adding buttons or cuff links or string or some decoration to the sleeves, but the dress does not have the flowing sleeves and has a different design with panels, maybe fur?

Good question. To be honest I haven't given these dresses much thought since the figures are so very small and only partially visible. So we have to do even more interpreting than usual. Additionally, these drawings are particularly messy; it looks like they were first drawn in the nude with exposed breasts/nipples and then have clothes added over them. In some cases with the notorious thick paint... 

The ones in Gemini are clean, though still small and without much detail. For example, the woman has only one sleeve drawn at the wrist. 
Some properties of her dress are a pattern, round neckline and no wide sleeves. All of these are easily found in MSS that also feature the sleeves so typical for 1400-1430.

[attachment=3075]

But once again, it's a shame these drawings are so unreliable (small, altered, rushed/unfinished...). Otherwise we'd have much more to work with.

(09-07-2019, 11:52 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(09-07-2019, 12:09 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... That one seems special, polkadots and all. ...

Polkadots are something very special in the Middle Ages. They would refer to a non-Western culture.

Quote:In Medieval Europe, the pattern was initially seen as very unpleasant, representing disease and impurity. Meanwhile, in Non-Western cultures, dots are viewed as symbols of male virility and magic.

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Thanks, that is interesting, i was thinking it would be non european, i kind of had egypt in mind for her although i have no reason beyond my interpretation of the ages, and she being one of the last clothed nymphs, i think they are all naked from there on.

A quick look just now finds a dress with one sleeve in the inset and a pattern approaching dots in another. A possibility maybe?

(09-07-2019, 11:57 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another manuscript with relevant fashion: BNF fr. 357. I have a feeling it should have been mentioned before but my searches didn't turn anything up. It's been given a placeholder date 1301-1400 but allow me to adjust this to the early 15th century (I'd say 1420's rather than earlier).
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(09-07-2019, 12:09 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What about the dress on the nymph in Gemini? That one seems special, polkadots and all. The guys seem to wear similar to male gemini, with one adding buttons or cuff links or string or some decoration to the sleeves, but the dress does not have the flowing sleeves and has a different design with panels, maybe fur?

Good question. To be honest I haven't given these dresses much thought since the figures are so very small and only partially visible. So we have to do even more interpreting than usual. Additionally, these drawings are particularly messy; it looks like they were first drawn in the nude with exposed breasts/nipples and then have clothes added over them. In some cases with the notorious thick paint... 

The ones in Gemini are clean, though still small and without much detail. For example, the woman has only one sleeve drawn at the wrist. 
Some properties of her dress are a pattern, round neckline and no wide sleeves. All of these are easily found in MSS that also feature the sleeves so typical for 1400-1430.



But once again, it's a shame these drawings are so unreliable (small, altered, rushed/unfinished...). Otherwise we'd have much more to work with.

The guy at the top of the linked page seems perfect for the crossbow guy. The dresses could be similar. I had also thought it might look like fur as well, like the royal ermine lined robe type of thing?

(09-07-2019, 12:32 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I had also thought it might look like fur as well, like the royal ermine lined robe type of thing?

That's what I would suggest for the neck lines of the VM dresses. They just lack the detail to say whether it's fur or not.
All images I used above are from the BNF fr. 357 MS, also the guy in red.

On polka dots I'd say again that the VM image is simplified. These rich fabrics were often patterned, making them appear even more expensive.
Here's just an example I pulled from my earlier blog post (ignore the arrows), look at the pattern on the left man's sleeve.

Hi Koen,
There were the sumptuary laws enacted all across Europe. (perhaps what bi3mw was referring to).
Sumptuary:
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And this site , though about English fashion may be interesting and worth a browse.
Scroll to the bottom for a historical fashion tour.
Fashion:
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Also the central figure in f72v2 Virgo maybe a man wearing a Houppelande.
Houppelande:
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No pointy shoes in the VMS either. They were unfashionble between 1390-1460 ish.
Pointy:
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(09-07-2019, 06:48 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Koen,
There were the sumptuary laws enacted all across Europe. (perhaps what bi3mw was referring to).
Sumptuary:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

And this site , though about English fashion may be interesting and worth a browse.
Scroll to the bottom for a historical fashion tour.
Fashion:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Also the central figure in f72v2 Virgo maybe a man wearing a Houppelande.
Houppelande:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

No pointy shoes in the VMS either. They were unfashionble between 1390-1460 ish.
Pointy:
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Sumptuary laws, striped cloaks for courtesans reminds me of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the one nymph with the red and white shawl.i think of her as Monaco..

An interesting site, Rob. It confirms our dating of the central figures' fashion once again.

I agree that our Virgo might well be a man. In this period, garments like the houppelande were worn by men and women alike. One consistent difference I've noticed is that when the houppelande is belted,  women wear the belt higher, almost at the breasts. Men wear the belt lower, sometimes very low. This is far from clear in the VM Virgo.