The Voynich Ninja

Sorry for the off-topic: nothing to add about sleeves.
The illustration in the manuscript pointed out by arca_libraria You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. seems to me a good parallel also in terms of layout. 

• The large zodiac medallion at the center of the page.
  
• Text running around the circle as a frame to the figure.
  
• The presence of "decorative" astral bodies (sun, moon and a constellation). While stars often appear on the bodies of zodiac figures, as more or less accurate hints to their original link with constellations, here the astral bodies appear in a larger, concentric circle, outside the central frame. This is vaguely comparable both with the stars held by the "nymphs" and with the stars inside a few medallions (Pisces, Virgo, Scorpio). The visual similarity is not as strong as the other two points above, but this arrangement is something rather unique.
  

Thanks for sharing this manuscript Marco - I assumed it was one you had all seen before.

Woman with plain neckline and long sleeve openings that are not cut-through style, man with sleeves narrow at the wrist and very wide at the elbows.

(It's not easy to find both of these clothing styles together in one picture. Often if the man is dressed like this, the woman has narrow sleeves (like the picture on the right) or cut-through sleeves (which might say something about social class):

[attachment=3512].  [attachment=3513]

From Thomas de Saluces , Le Chevalier errant, BNF Français 12559 c. 1404


I think it's possible that the small subgroup of zodiac figures that included romantic couples for Gemini and goatee-man for Sagittarius might have been inspired by popular stories like this, which would have been orated (they are often in verse) or acted out by traveling troupes.


Also of interest, from the same manuscript, properties expressed in mappa mundi style (with a reference underneath to Alexander conquering the world which I assume is probably Alexander the Great?):

[attachment=3514]

And if you look closely in the third illustration, in the dark blue band, a very carefully drawn, nebuly line based cloud-band pattern.

I was confused by this image from Paris, Bibl. Mazarine, 1334. The men have exaggeratedly baggy sleeves, closed at the wrist, while the women still wear tippets, typical for the 14th century. I assumed it must represent a transitional stage, but the date I found initially was a super wide "14th-15th century". You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. gives 1390-1409, which confirms my suspicion.

(04-10-2018, 09:04 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've been thinking a lot about how we can collectively determine a date range for the Zodiac figures' dress. 

I was thinking. Having said that the Voynich crossbowman was a copy of an earlier illustration then of the other examples that you located which of them do you think were copies of earlier illustrations?

Would it make sense to exclude those examples which were unlikely to be copies of earlier illustrations?

Would the drawing being a copy make the dates necessarily later, so shifting the probability distribution?

When you say that even in copies fashion styles were updated, what evidence do you have for that?

The quote about the Devonshire Hunting Tapestries that you provide is:

"Bagpipe sleeves seen in the tapestry went out of fashion around 1430."

I think the crucial word here is "around". The word is not "by". For example 1432 is around 1430.

So I don't think one can say, as Koen does: "This provides a hypothetical upper limit for the male dress, which may or may not be challenged by our exercise." as the word "around" does not indicate an "upper limit".

And given that we are talking about "Devonshire" hunting tapestries, we are talking about England.

So is the author saying?

"Bagpipe sleeves seen in the tapestry went out of fashion around 1430 IN ENGLAND."

or

"Bagpipe sleeves seen in the tapestry went out of fashion around 1430 IN EUROPE."

(14-11-2022, 10:47 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."Bagpipe sleeves seen in the tapestry went out of fashion around 1430 IN ENGLAND."

or

"Bagpipe sleeves seen in the tapestry went out of fashion around 1430 IN EUROPE."

They don't need to specify, because most people interested in art history know about the International Gothic style, the influence of cultural centers like Paris, travelling artists, the interconnectedness of the courts and so on. You don't want to be seen depicted in 1440 wearing what went out of fashion at other courts ten years before. Think modern celebrity culture, red carpets, Fashion Week... Ten years is an eternity.

I'm out of this discussion. I'll read it when you inevitably find some poor art historian who happens to say something that fits in your theory.

(14-11-2022, 11:49 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'll read it when you inevitably find some poor art historian who happens to say something that fits in your theory.

Well, which art historian(s) do you suggest?

I am happy to have the opinion of a variety of art historians. I can potentially provide a full transcript of communication and credentials. Of course, I would have to get the permission of the people in question to put their conversation or quotes from them on this forum.