Insofar as I think quires 13, 14, and the cosmos page at least, describe the earth, I think anything under the sun, so to speak, is fair game, especially since water seems comes up a lot, which relates to both plants and people. Nymphs are in quire 13 and in the zodiac. Quire 20 is in the same hand as quire 13. Also, the 4-people diagrams on the back of the Rosettes, one seems to show the bounty of harvest, along with the ages of man (which i don't think is what it portrays, currently writing a post about how it relates to quire 13) the style of both of those seems to go with f57v, which has a plant on the other side of the page, so i think that pulls some things together as well. I also think some things might make more sense if untangled from the way it is bound.
Here is a map with a rather unconventional interpretation of the motif.
Bartholomeus Anglicus, De proprietatibus rerum
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Barthélémy l'Anglais, Livre des propriétés des choses, traduit du latin par Jean Corbechon, 1479-1480
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(04-01-2025, 11:35 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Four rivers of Paradise?
An interesting observation. Yes, I also think that could represent the four rivers ( Perat, Hiddekel, Gihon and Pischon ).
Expulsion from Paradise, Giovanni di Paolo (1445)
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Interesting. It's still a standard T-O, with a pictorial and geographical representation of the Earth surrounded by water.
(04-01-2025, 11:27 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Insofar as I think quires 13, 14, and the cosmos page at least, describe the earth, I think anything under the sun, so to speak, is fair game, especially since water seems comes up a lot, which relates to both plants and people. Nymphs are in quire 13 and in the zodiac. Quire 20 is in the same hand as quire 13. Also, the 4-people diagrams on the back of the Rosettes, one seems to show the bounty of harvest, along with the ages of man (which i don't think is what it portrays, currently writing a post about how it relates to quire 13) the style of both of those seems to go with f57v, which has a plant on the other side of the page, so i think that pulls some things together as well. I also think some things might make more sense if untangled from the way it is bound.
All great points. I’m looking forward to your post on the “4 ages”. I had my own idea of that one too, but it doesn’t quite work, out of order. And yes, water, water everywhere. Even the nymphs could represent water in the zodiac; I mean, what do buckets and barrels normally hold? I’ve given to calling the nymphs “ciphers”, which is what a zero was called back then. It seems non-intuitive but I just read “The Absent Image”, a new book on medieval images, and it’s really surprising the medieval meanings given to zero: placeholder, reproductive, defined by context, etc. All of the things I knew or suspected about the nymphs. With the multitude of “o”s in the text one never knows. This is the kind of fun research I enjoy regardless if it means anything.
(05-01-2025, 12:24 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (04-01-2025, 11:27 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Insofar as I think quires 13, 14, and the cosmos page at least, describe the earth, I think anything under the sun, so to speak, is fair game, especially since water seems comes up a lot, which relates to both plants and people. Nymphs are in quire 13 and in the zodiac. Quire 20 is in the same hand as quire 13. Also, the 4-people diagrams on the back of the Rosettes, one seems to show the bounty of harvest, along with the ages of man (which i don't think is what it portrays, currently writing a post about how it relates to quire 13) the style of both of those seems to go with f57v, which has a plant on the other side of the page, so i think that pulls some things together as well. I also think some things might make more sense if untangled from the way it is bound.
All great points. I’m looking forward to your post on the “4 ages”. I had my own idea of that one too, but it doesn’t quite work, out of order. And yes, water, water everywhere. Even the nymphs could represent water in the zodiac; I mean, what do buckets and barrels normally hold? I’ve given to calling the nymphs “ciphers”, which is what a zero was called back then. It seems non-intuitive but I just read “The Absent Image”, a new book on medieval images, and it’s really surprising the medieval meanings given to zero: placeholder, reproductive, defined by context, etc. All of the things I knew or suspected about the nymphs. With the multitude of “o”s in the text one never knows. This is the kind of fun research I enjoy regardless if it means anything.
Thanks for looking forward, just gonna check it again, each time I do, I think of something else...have you seen any of my posts about quire 13? They will be old. I don't think I actually finished writing up all the pages, but I think it is a contiguous tour of the world by water. I have been away awhile. But I still think about it so I thought I would relook at things again and see where it leads.
The most amazing thing about a book that seems to be indecipherable is that it gets other books read. So I would be just as happy to be wrong about what was meant, since it taught me stuff anyway, that I wouldn't have enjoyed learning the normal way.
Quote: Thanks for looking forward, just gonna check it again, each time I do, I think of something else...have you seen any of my posts about quire 13? They will be old. I don't think I actually finished writing up all the pages, but I think it is a contiguous tour of the world by water. I have been away awhile. But I still think about it so I thought I would relook at things again and see where it leads.
The most amazing thing about a book that seems to be indecipherable is that it gets other books read. So I would be just as happy to be wrong about what was meant, since it taught me stuff anyway, that I wouldn't have enjoyed learning the normal way.
I’m often impressed with your posts but just on an incidental basis. If you could direct me to a thread on quire 13, much appreciated. But no doubt I can just search by your name.
A contiguous trip around the world by water?! I’m intrigued, though the idea of a real map as opposed to a cognitive, conceptual map has never persuaded me. Maybe we will meet in the middle!
At some point I will go through everything posted and unposted and make some sort of index since I tend to confuse myself along the way, I just lost a semi long reply to someone by going to look something up without first previewing. Ah well. The universe didn't want it posted I guess.
Ugh and I lost the previous, luckily small, edit to my post about the ages of man thing, I just posted it so as not to do that again!
(04-01-2025, 10:25 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's undeniably true that the rosettes page, Q13 and some other folios are connected, and studying this topic may lead to useful insights. But let's not forget that large majority of folios in this manuscript bear no visual resemblance to the rosettes family at all. Plants, Zodiac and Q20 are of a different breed, despite the occasional overlap.
Here's a diagram I had in mind for a while now. It shows the similarity between illustrations from the various sections. If a cell is light green, they have something specific in common, and this is written in bold.
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This connects Herbal, pharma, rosettes and astro/cosmo on the one hand, and bio and zodiac on the other.
Yellow cells share the same type of stars, which are not such a strong link as they are quite basic shapes.
Pink cells have individual stylistic commonalities or details. 'Circles' just means circular diagrams.
The two larger groups are most linked through the zodiac and astro/cosmo illustrations.
The individual letters refer to:
L = both have abundant labels
C = both have circular texts.
All in all, it seems quite coherent and connected. Specifically, the rosettes folio has something to share with all other sections.
Edit: previous edit corrected