The Voynich Ninja

(31-12-2024, 02:27 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(31-12-2024, 01:57 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, the wavy thing under the fire ring here is the air element?

Yes!

What does the wavy thing signify in this depiction below? It looks a bit more like that from BNF 565, and there are something like 46 waves, it I counted them right. Here the wavy ring surrounds Venus, Mars, Mercury and the Moon, but absent from the Sun, Jupyter and Saturn. Does it refer to some specific qualities of the planets, like corresponding astrological elements (air again?)?

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[attachment=9636]

(31-12-2024, 05:23 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Excellent find oshfdk -- That's the closest yet, at least for showing the outer undulations.  The other major features (showing similarity between VMS and BNF Fr. 565) are the gold stars an blue background and concentric O-T, but each is found in other drawings. Only the combination is peculiar but it is at least plausible that it could all be coincidence.

(31-12-2024, 06:09 PM)asteckley Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Excellent find oshfdk -- That's the closest yet, at least for showing the outer undulations.  The other major features (showing similarity between VMS and BNF Fr. 565) are the gold stars an blue background and concentric O-T, but each is found in other drawings. Only the combination is peculiar but it is at least plausible that it could all be coincidence.

As far as I understand, the main oddity of both VMS and BNF Fr. 565 is the inverted O-T? This has probably been discussed already, but what exactly do the three parts of the map represent in BNF Fr. 565? The bottom looks like the ocean, the top right is some familiar civilized landscape, and what's in the top left?

@oshfdk

You asked about the "wavy" lines in the cosmic diagrams of the VMs and BNF Fr. 565. In those examples they are representations of cosmic boundaries.

In post #76, the inner bands are visual representations of the classical elements: water, air, and fire.

Heraldic lines of division provide a few helpful examples and a bit of useful terminology. Outside of heraldry, generally, wavy lines represent water, nebuly lines represent air or clouds, and rayonny & indented lines were used to represent fire.

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A nebuly line is similar to a sine wave but the crests and troughs are bulbous. The line may be drawn simply like the VMs or much more elaborated like the scallop-shell pattern of BNF Fr. 565 and others.

The term "nebuly" derives from the Latin "nebula", meaning cloud or mist. In German "die Wolke" also designates a cloud.

In the illustrations of Post #82 the large circular bands best represent cosmic boundaries separating the various classical deities from the earthly scenes around them.  But as you can see, circles made of plain lines also serve this purpose. Wavy lines and rayonny/indented lines and various other techniques can also be used as well - something about artistic license. Meanwhile, in the upper corners, the nebuly patterns more likely represent clouds.

Clear as mud, eh?

[quote="ReneZ" pid='63104' dateline='1735610472']
[quote='asteckley' pid='63094' dateline='1735576953']

The comos illustration is not at all unique to the MS.

[/quote,

Could you say something more specific? The original subjects of the cosmic comparison were just three, and none have been added. If we are trying to stay on the early side of 1450, then we are looking at the VMs, BNF Fr. 565, and Harley 334.

What other sources have represented the medieval cosmos with such a simplified, visual structure? All the planetary spheres and the various levels of heaven are gone. The cosmos is reduced to three parts: the Earth, the stars, and the cosmic boundary. It may not be unique, but prior to 1450, both historical examples originate in Paris.

What else is relevant?

(31-12-2024, 06:41 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As far as I understand, the main oddity of both VMS and BNF Fr. 565 is the inverted O-T? This has probably been discussed already, but what exactly do the three parts of the map represent in BNF Fr. 565? The bottom looks like the ocean, the top right is some familiar civilized landscape, and what's in the top left?

People say a TO Map is geographical, with Europe Africa Asia, in an east up orientation, but that the Oresme TO is elemental, with water air earth, in a north up presentation. But I think it is important to note that it is even more geographical than the TO map, an updating of understanding. 

Imagine you are looking at a globe with Europe and Africa on the right, the Americas on the left. Well, you don't have to imagine, here it is:

Now apply the belief that world is half water, and it sinks mainly to the bottom of the globe, because we hadn't yet figured out how gravity works on a macro level. No one was likely going to refute that, since Europeans who had tried had never yet gotten past the equator. 
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But they knew from doing math and science that the world is round and about how big it is, for some time. Maybe they figured the bottom half had to be water or it would dry to a crisp, since they noticed it gets hotter the closer you get to the equator. Maybe they heard about the Pacific Ocean from their expeditions to the East.

So, draw a line at the equator and cover anything below it with water. Down the middle of the Atlantic, just off the westernmost coast of Africa, draw a line and amorphize the upper side to the west.  



By drawing these lines and shading things out, you have effectively removed all the unknown areas to the west and below about the point where the Nile begins, just like in Ptolemy charts, Beatus Maps, etc., i.e. as it had always been depicted.

At the side "seam" on the East, the line would be drawn down through about Gujurat, India, with the rest of India and all else to the East on the other side. None of that is visible in this portrayal, it is just given room on the other side. What you see drawn is then the representation of the habitable known ecumene that had been drawn for millenia, but in its place on a globe.

Here is Strabo's ecumene drawn on a globe, simply turn it to the right and you have Oresme's globe.

Europe is not a quarter of Earth like in a TO chart, but instead, the whole ecumene takes up a different 3D quarter of a globe, with the newest additions to same tucked around back (luckily that way they didn't have to draw it, since they only just found out about it.) There, but not drawn, with further unknowns (Australia, the extents of China, Antarctica et al) also conveniently covered up.

By the way, here are some more versions of Oresme's globe, everyone keeps saying there are only three, including the vms, but there are certainly more, even within the same manuscript. They are mostly smaller though.



With some you see the evolution of the ideas...This one has the globe with a non inverted TO, and a half TO.

  
Just turn this half TO upside down, put it on top of water on the bottom, then turn it sideways to the right and add an amorphous half with more water on the bottom to the left.
Here is the link to the whole manuscript.
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Here is another version, less pics though.
(ff. 61r-95v) 
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(ff. 29r-44v) [last quarter of the 15th century] see 38v especially
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There are also John Gower's Vox clamantis manuscripts. The artists don't seem to know exactly what they were supposed to represent in the two northern quarters.

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(01-01-2025, 08:03 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(ff. 29r-44v) [last quarter of the 15th century] see 38v especially
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[attachment=9638]

La terre inhabitable pour trop froit (uninhabitable because too cold)

terre habitable (inhabitable)

La terre inhabitable pour trop chault (uninhabitable because too hot)

La terre couverte de mer (covered by the sea)

Gower shoots his arrows at the world as a metaphor for his moral commentary (if you are a bad person, my written arrows will expose you). Why they chose to represent the world like this in that particular context is beyond me. The emphasis is on the elemental makeup (air, water, land), which just isn't the best choice for a moral critique.

The second globe clearly reflects the structure of the globus cruciger, which might imply that the arrows are meant for all layers of society. Or that divine judgement is the final judgement.

Either way, the globe like this is the one a king holds.

Interesting and early, mostly pictorial with a bit of the symbolic - nebuly lines for clouds. Structurally they are the same as the Earth in the center of the Paris illustrations. They are inverted T-O globes with tree elements. That's great but that's all. They are not cosmic diagrams comparable to the one's under investigation.

In the first example, is Gower's bow drawn on purpose like a rainbow? Otherwise the coloring and shading on this one item would be more awkward than the rest.