The Voynich Ninja

(03-01-2025, 10:53 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.From the perspective of Earth, the cosmic boundary represents the limits of knowledge. Yet the VMs has a circle and curved spokes beyond the cosmic boundary.

If something is supposed to be moving, what is it that moves? If the Earth and the whole cosmos rotate like a disk, then from the perspective of Earth, the apparent net motion is zero. Otherwise, in the wheel and hub model, the Earth is stationary.

That has always bothered me too, about the two being connected to the same ring. 

But perhaps we can forgive that, pending knowing what they meant to convey. 

Perhaps there are dual channels in that ring, or the connections to the firmament or earth are more complex than initially noticeable. The question then would be do both move or are they trying to say the Earth movements cause more than one kind of movement? The earth turns on its axis, so we have night and day and the stars appear to progress through the night. The earth moves around the sun, so that what is seen to turn changes over time on a yearly basis (but they didn't know that yet, so would be perceived as the firmament also moves). 

The earth wobbles, so there is precession of the equinoxes over thousands of years. They may have known that, especially since most of what we know of Hipparchus is from Ptolemy, whose works were being translated in the early 1400s. The sun also moves through the galaxy, so there are changes from that as well over time, they probably didn't know that.. And, things do change in the firmament, stars go nova, become nebulae which change over time, some things just go dark, etc. And everything is moving away from us at accelerated speeds and things go missing forever from our ability to ever see them again due to expansion of space, which itself isnot constant and depends on viewpoint. (I am sure those parts are not represented).

So, they might have just erred on the mechanics of drawing a simple armillary sphere, and meant to say both move, as Rene suggested.

(03-01-2025, 08:07 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing I've long wondered about is a possible relationship between the Voynich 'cosmos' illustration and the rosettes folio.

In the cosmos, the Earth is in the centre, and the sky outside, as one would expect it to be.
In the rosettes it is the opposite. The sky with stars is in the centre (carried by containers or towers) while the Earth is outside in the far upper right corner.
In the Cosmos, there are spirals coming in from eight directions. That they come in is suggested by the direction of the writing.
In the rosettes, there are eight circles surrounding the centre, all (apparently) pointing to it.

Alternatively, the upper right circle could have this role all by itself.
The sky with the stars in the centre, the Earth on the outside, and one spiral path.

I do not see the cosmos illustration (f83v3) as something that stands by itself.

Nor do I. In the rosettes, 4 circles directly connect to the middle, whereas 4 have features that point toward it but don’t directly connect. I’ve always felt there was a correspondence, but can only guess at what it might be, ie. phenomenal vs  ephemeral influences. This is because I think the entire middle diagram works outward from the earth to the celestial, and the 8 outer spheres are details. 

The stars in the lake in the central diagram, I believe to be a reflection of the night sky, which is what you would see looking up into the canopy of heaven directly above. The underside, if you will. So to me there is no sky in the middle of the earth; it’s just water ((or the water of life).

There is definitely an “as above, so below”motif to the rosettes page,imo,  but that interpretation depends upon how you orient the spheres around it.

(04-01-2025, 09:10 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-01-2025, 08:07 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing I've long wondered about is a possible relationship between the Voynich 'cosmos' illustration and the rosettes folio.

Nor do I. In the rosettes, 4 circles directly connect to the middle, whereas 4 have features that point toward it but don’t directly connect. I’ve always felt there was a correspondence, but can only guess at what it might be, ie. phenomenal vs  ephemeral influences. This is because I think the entire middle diagram works outward from the earth to the celestial, and the 8 outer spheres are details. 

The stars in the lake in the central diagram, I believe to be a reflection of the night sky, which is what you would see looking up into the canopy of heaven directly above. The underside, if you will. So to me there is no sky in the middle of the earth; it’s just water ((or the water of life).

There is definitely an “as above, so below”motif to the rosettes page,imo,  but that interpretation depends upon how you orient the spheres around it.

I was thinking about the four and four...I think the four not connected might represent things so big that everyone knows or talks about them, so you would still get it from the four connections due to the pathways between the others. In my view, two seem to be volcanoes, one perhaps a monsoon, and the other seems to denote the taking of Ceuta. 

That is interesting about the lake idea but why make it float between the pillars? It is different than the cosmos firmament, i was thinking it was more similar, but in comparing them, I think the rosettes one is more ephemeral, but at the same time, closer to earth, given it is not above the more earthly seeming elements but floating amongst the tips. The collective consciousness of the world, perhaps, the depths of knowledge. That it doesn't fully cover the base might mean we don't yet know everything, that not everyone has access to all the knowledge, perhaps. Only higher ups can access it directly, and only parts of it, have to get to another silo of information to get more access. Are these pillars libraries? Repositories of knowledge?

(04-01-2025, 05:27 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(04-01-2025, 09:10 AM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-01-2025, 08:07 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One thing I've long wondered about is a possible relationship between the Voynich 'cosmos' illustration and the rosettes folio.

Nor do I. In the rosettes, 4 circles directly connect to the middle, whereas 4 have features that point toward it but don’t directly connect. I’ve always felt there was a correspondence, but can only guess at what it might be, ie. phenomenal vs  ephemeral influences. This is because I think the entire middle diagram works outward from the earth to the celestial, and the 8 outer spheres are details. 

The stars in the lake in the central diagram, I believe to be a reflection of the night sky, which is what you would see looking up into the canopy of heaven directly above. The underside, if you will. So to me there is no sky in the middle of the earth; it’s just water ((or the water of life).

There is definitely an “as above, so below”motif to the rosettes page,imo,  but that interpretation depends upon how you orient the spheres around it.

I was thinking about the four and four...I think the four not connected might represent things so big that everyone knows or talks about them, so you would still get it from the four connections due to the pathways between the others. In my view, two seem to be volcanoes, one perhaps a monsoon, and the other seems to denote the taking of Ceuta. 

That is interesting about the lake idea but why make it float between the pillars? It is different than the cosmos firmament, i was thinking it was more similar, but in comparing them, I think the rosettes one is more ephemeral, but at the same time, closer to earth, given it is not above the more earthly seeming elements but floating amongst the tips. The collective consciousness of the world, perhaps, the depths of knowledge. That it doesn't fully cover the base might mean we don't yet know everything, that not everyone has access to all the knowledge, perhaps. Only higher ups can access it directly, and only parts of it, have to get to another silo of information to get more access. Are these pillars libraries? Repositories of knowledge?

It’s interesting because you and I are seeing it differently but coming up with similar conceptual conclusions. 

I don’t really see the structures as pillars but as pharmacy bottles primarily, places of worship secondarily.  The pharmacy bottles intersect with the water of life as their main ingredient; the places of worship centre around Wisdom. One and the same, just categorically different, in alchemy. The Aurora Consurgens, with its Silvery Water and Starry Earth, and it’s search for Wisdom, seem very influential on what’s going on on the Rosettes page. 

The Water of Life (quintessence,aether) as proposed by Aristotle, is what the stars and heavens are made of and are immortal. Rupescissa believed that through distillation we could achieve an earthly variety of the water of life that would ensure a very long life(think Methusalah). So this water at the centre of the earth, reflecting the stars, becomes a nexus between the celestial and the earthly. It’s such an apt metaphor it would take a really good debate to budge me from this perspective. 

That’s why too I see the Rosettes page as THE cosmology page (with the central sphere acting similar to Hildegard’s and others),not the smaller one we’ve been discussing, and where I first got ideas about motion and change based on Aristotle and other Ancient Greek ideas that would have been in the university curriculum.  

For example, that great wheel in the middle top row should be the zodiac, but it possesses 13 bifurcated spokes rather than the expected 12. To me, it was including either a 13th constellation or God/demiurge. How to resolve?

Now take a look at the underside, its reflection on earth, and the nebuly that surrounds the group of stars. The bulges have a very distinct looking three-toed culmination. Where is that seen in the VMS?  The little dragon has toes identical. It’s even eating off a leaf, very reminiscent of other of the zodiac signs. There is one constellation it could represent: Draconis.  Draconis is similar to the ouroborous but it surrounds the heavens not the earth. It also surrounds the pole star. At any rate, from the reflection, you get a probable answer for the 13th spoke. 

Returning to the zodiac, you also see what looks like a huge phallus hanging down. Or it could be some kind of crank. Turn it and crank up the heavens and they will move. Or, in alchemy, change is usually predicated on metaphors of reproduction. In this case, it’s both an Aristotlean crank to get the mechanical cosmos moving, and an alchemical phallus acting as the same. 

Lastly, to compound my ideas of canopies and undersides, you don’t have to look further than the balneological section, where some of the “nymphs” reside under canopies with the same colouration as the ones on the rosettes pages. Connected? Almost certainly. 

All this to say that Rene’s instinct that the small cosmological illustration is connected to the Rosette page is likely dead on. I think almost everything in the VMS is connected to the Rosette page. By reading the right medieval texts, perhaps altering our visual perceptions, and making use of internal to the text evidence of similarity and difference, a clearer picture of what’s going on might be derived. Not to say I think I’m 100% right!  I know better.

No time at the moment but this came to mind.



And yes re the containers, I was just calling them pillars in relation to the nebuly blue disc, to call them containers would have made everything smaller than I was envisioning. But everything seems nebulous in that way, being seen from different perspectives.

That the spirals in the small cosmo illustration seem to come from outside the universe is reflected in the rosettes page as well -the “frame narrative” outside the rosettes spheres proper show, at least to me, a Greek/hermetic philosophy on the creation of the cosmos.  Top left, empty path to something?  Using my perspective, this can only lead to the  invisible “unmoved mover”. Bottom right: the creation of the elements from matter (watery earth). Bottom left: Aion, the ages, cosmic time rather than chronological. These are three existing pillars of many philosophies and religions from before the creation, particularly the Greeks.  So basically, cranks or not, the first cause of motion in an Aristotelian universe comes from outside the universe.

It's undeniably true that the rosettes page, Q13 and some other folios are connected, and studying this topic may lead to useful insights. But let's not forget that large majority of folios in this manuscript bear no visual resemblance to the rosettes family at all. Plants, Zodiac and Q20 are of a different breed, despite the occasional overlap.

(04-01-2025, 09:45 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No time at the moment but this came to mind.



And yes re the containers, I was just calling them pillars in relation to the nebuly blue disc, to call them containers would have made everything smaller than I was envisioning. But everything seems nebulous in that way, being seen from different perspectives.

Love the illustration!

(04-01-2025, 10:25 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's undeniably true that the rosettes page, Q13 and some other folios are connected, and studying this topic may lead to useful insights. But let's not forget that large majority of folios in this manuscript bear no visual resemblance to the rosettes family at all. Plants, Zodiac and Q20 are of a different breed, despite the occasional overlap.

On the face of it, but that’s where I think we go wrong, by relying only on the visual instead of the texts the illustrations might be based on. I’ve found a few interesting correlations with the zodiac, for instance, that would never be found unless read about. From my perspective, a whole sphere is devoted to plants. I believe the Rosettes page operates as a worldview, but also an index.Moreover, there are many very obvious visual resemblances I’ve never even seen mentioned.  Devil’s in the details.

I see a similarity of style between the rosettes and the cosmic illustrations. The central rosette has an elaborated nebuly line as a cloud-band / cosmic boundary where the VMs cosmic version is the basic pattern.