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f37v
don of tallahassee > 26-09-2016, 06:29 AM
iiiii -
RE: f37v
Anton > 09-01-2017, 01:18 AM
It's a pity that the content is deleted by the original poster, but the thread remains.
I have read in Ruby's blog here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that the plant in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may be related to some "lunaria maior" from two Italian manuscripts of XV c.
Anybody knows what's that "lunaria maior" in terms of modern botany? -
RE: f37v
-JKP- > 09-01-2017, 01:31 AM
(09-01-2017, 01:18 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's a pity that the content is deleted by the original poster, but the thread remains.
I have read in Ruby's blog here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that the plant in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may be related to some "lunaria maior" from two Italian manuscripts of XV c.
Anybody knows what's that "lunaria maior" in terms of modern botany?
Plant 37v doesn't resemble Lunaria (the real plant).
The mythical Lunaria, which is in many medieval herbals is sometimes depicted this way, but it usually has smooth edges to the leaves so that it resembles the moon. -
RE: f37v
-JKP- > 09-01-2017, 02:19 PM
(09-01-2017, 01:13 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So Lunaria maior is purely mythical, is it?
Do you have any ideas for the Voynich You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. identification? I think it might be imaginary as well (the folio does not mention any of the Voynich stars).
I'm less certain about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. than some of the other plants, and I'm not sure of the significance of the man-like root, but I do have a short list of some possible IDs...
There's a plant with round scalloped leaves called Sibthorpia peregrina (syn. Disandra prostrata) and also Sibthorpia europaea. Sibthorpia is a viny ground cover, a medicinal plant. The stem is not as thick as shown in the VMS plant, so I'm not certain it's a good match.
Umbilicus rupestris is a very widespread medicinal plant with rounded leaves, but they are broadly scalloped, not small and regularly scalloped like the VMS plant, so I'm not sure it's a good candidate.
Glechoma hederacea is a very common medicinal ground ivy with rounded, scalloped leaves but the flowers are more like snap-dragon and not so much like the VMS flowers and they grow from the leaf nodes, not specifically at the top of the plant.
Possibly Lamium (dead nettle). It grows everywhere, but it only looks like the VMS pic if you flatten it.
Maybe alpine coltsfoot (Homogyne alpina) in the spring when the flowers are not fully open.
A stronger possibility may be Saxifraga granulata, which is also a medicinal plant with rounded, scalloped leaves, and the fruiting bodies look somewhat like the "spinnerheads" on the VMS plant. The root is unusual... it looks knobby, a bit like garlic. If I remember correctly, it originates near the border of France and Spain.
Another thing in favor of the saxifrages is that some of them have round raised red dots on the center stalk above the blossoms (on some these are long stamens, but on others they are short so they almost seem attached to the pistil), and it's quite possible that this might inspire those unusual heads on the VMS flower stalks.
There are some others with similar leaves, like some of the veronicas, but their flowers don't match as well. -
RE: f37v
Searcher > 09-01-2017, 03:35 PM
Anton:
Quote:Anybody knows what's that "lunaria maior" in terms of modern botany?
There is no exact answer to this question for centuries.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but, I am inclined (and some botanists) to think that this is Lunaria annua.
Lunaria minor - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: f37v
Anton > 09-01-2017, 03:42 PM
I also thought about Umbilicus rupestris yesterday - but for reasons other than botanical. That would be a promising candidate from the text analysis point of view. The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. plant has been identified by many as Paris, which - as we discussed yesterday - was dubbed Umbilicus veneris in those times. Now, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. begins with the vord kshody. That's the vord which You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. begins with as well. Since in my contextual analysis approach I consider first vords of botanical folios as "potential plant names" (PPN's), having the same vord as PPN for two "umbilicus" plants would be something encouraging.
But the problem is that this one does not look very much like umbilicus rupestris - and I'd say that's for the buds and flowers rather than for the leaves...
...Any opinions on that? -
RE: f37v
-JKP- > 09-01-2017, 10:25 PM
(09-01-2017, 03:42 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also thought about Umbilicus rupestris yesterday - but for reasons other than botanical. That would be a promising candidate from the text analysis point of view. The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. plant has been identified by many as Paris, which - as we discussed yesterday - was dubbed Umbilicus veneris in those times. Now, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. begins with the vord kshody. That's the vord which You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. begins with as well. Since in my contextual analysis approach I consider first vords of botanical folios as "potential plant names" (PPN's), having the same vord as PPN for two "umbilicus" plants would be something encouraging.
But the problem is that this one does not look very much like umbilicus rupestris - and I'd say that's for the buds and flowers rather than for the leaves...
...Any opinions on that?
I don't want to discourage you from investigating the relationship between the text and Plant You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as Paris and I'm completely supportive of your logic (following the text relationships for plants that may be related by name) but I'll throw in my point of view for what it's worth...
I know many have identified 5r as Paris quadrifolia and I can understand why—the upright berry looks like Paris quadrifolia. But... the leaves do not. They are the wrong shape, the wrong orientation, and the wrong number, and, the variation of the color (perhaps to distinguish the many leaves??) seems very deliberate, so I am less certain of it being Paris than others. If it is Paris... the leaves might be saying something about the plant other than the literal shape of the leaves.
If it is Paris, it's unlikely to be P. quadrifolia, it resembles species of Paris from farther east (they have more leaves) or... there's always the lesser possibility that it's a species of plant that died out when Europe was deforested (it grows in shady places).
I don't know if anyone has mentioned Trientalis europaea as an ID for plant 5r (I know they've suggested Trientalis europaea for some of the other plants). The ID of Paris is so popular it's possible Trientalis was overlooked, but Trientalis europaea matches 5r quite a bit better than Paris. In the spring it has a round knob flower and in the fall it has a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. similar in shape to Paris (Trientalis looks like 5r both in the spring and in the fall, but for different reasons). Like Paris, it has a curled-under calyx but the leaves are pointier and more numerous than Paris and they curl under more than Paris (especially in the fall). It's a widespread Eurasian plant and is included in many 18th- and 19th-century herbals.
Paris has a rhizome (a side-growing "tap" root) that is somewhat segmented. Trientalis roots spread in several directions. Neither one completely matches the 5r root and I can't tell if the 5r knobs are naturalistic or symbolic.Taken as a whole, however, Trientalis europaea is quite a good match for 5r and was considered a medicinal plant.
Sorry I can't respond to your questions about umbilicus right now. Unfortunately, my lunch break is over, gotta get back to work.
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RE: f37v
Anton > 09-01-2017, 11:02 PM
Yes the number of leaves for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is what confuses me also. But the vast majority of the other plants of my "focus set" can boast even poorer consesus. I'll look at trientalis though.
..But let's focus on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in this thread.