- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
f17v
- f17v
-
f17v
Koen G > 21-09-2016, 03:50 PM
I have mentioned this some time ago in another thread, but that was not dedicated to f17v, so I decided to make a new thread about it.
After letting it rest for a while, I revisited the curiously shaped tendril on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and decided to write a blog post about it (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
First of all, it is clear that this plant is a vine (any kind of creeping or climbing plant, probably not grape vines). This seems to be what most, if not all researchers agree on, with for example Dana Scott having identified it as wild buckwheat. I'm not sure which kind of vine it represents, but I have made this composite image to show some examples I think closely resemble its parts:
![[Image: comp.jpg?w=616]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/comp.jpg?w=616)
What strikes me as strange, though, is that the tendril does not spiral, but rather kind of waves its way down. Tendrils generally do not behave this way. They will curl like the cable of an old telephone, or spiral up on themselves like a snail shell.
![[Image: 3732145438_a15b9a1d5c_z.jpg]](https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3533/3732145438_a15b9a1d5c_z.jpg)
Additionally, they are often rather regular in their curls or undulations, while the tendril in the Voynich plant behaves very erratically but, as far as we can see, does not curl.
As usual, this strange aspect does not appear to represent a botanical property, but at least as I believe, contains a symbolic image. In this case, a face in profile. It is rendered with such detail that we can even say which kind of face: an older man with a bald head, moustache, pointy beard, snub nose. A wreath of vegetation in his hair.
![[Image: f17v4.jpg?w=400&h=749]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/f17v4.jpg?w=400&h=749)
At first I took this face to refer to Seilenos, the drunkard foster father of Dionysos (Roman Bacchus), the god of wine. However, since I have found images of "Old Bacchus", which are virtually identical to Seilenos imagery and are recognized much more widely. Indeed, Bacchus has been known throughout history and even those who believe the manuscript was made by a 15th century auteur should not be too surprised to find his image here. Bacchus was known as the god of not only the cultivated grape vine, but also its wild cousins: ivy, bindweed and similar creepers and climbers. He and his companions are always shown with a wreath of vines in their hair, and an ivy crown was also worn by those who worshiped him.
![[Image: f17v5.jpg?w=616]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/f17v5.jpg?w=616)
The image above sets just one example of "old Bacchus" in f17v. The features evoked in the profile and those often found in Bacchus' face are too many to be a coincidence: high forehead, thick brow, deep set eyes, stubby nose, thick moustache, pronounced lower lip, wild, medium length beard. The shape of the leaves in his crown varies, depending on which vines the artist knew or preferred. Also note that there are very often berries near the brow, both in this statue and others, and in the VM drawing.
When I first saw this months ago, I did not know what to make of it, but having understood the connection between Dionysos/Bacchus and vines in general, I can only conclude that the interpretations of this plant as a vine (as made by many others before) and of the tendril as representing Dionysos reinforce each other in a logical and relatively straightforward way.
Some more images can be seen in the blog post I linked, but these should give a general impression. Ideas and comments are welcome. I'd also like to know which other ID's for this plant have been proposed. -
RE: f17v
MarcoP > 21-09-2016, 05:12 PM
-
RE: f17v
-JKP- > 21-09-2016, 06:29 PM
I looked at my notes, and I have a list of possible IDs for 17v.
- A couple of the Rumex species are a good match for the leaves and seeds, but I downgraded Rumex for a while because I thought the leaves were always a basal clump, until I found some growing in this area that send up vine-line shoots, so it's still on the list. It does not have tendrils at the ends of the stalks, but the seeds at the top do sometimes drop off first, leaving a bare stem, and I've always wondered if the tendril shape and the double stem above the root were meant to be mnemonic rather than literal. The roots are a pretty good match. Usually they have tap roots or clumps of roots, but I found a photo of one with a rhizome with successive clumps.
- There are some Chenopods that are similar to 17v, with hastate leaves, red seeds, and some species, like some of the salt bushes, are viny. The end of the seed stalks of some species can be very wiggly, suggesting similarity to various profiles of animals or people. As with Rumex, the seeds at the top sometimes drop off, leaving tendril-like ends.
- Smilex is on my list, although the leaves of Smilex are not quite as hastate as the ones in the VMS drawing. It's a vine, it has tendrils, and the grape-like berries are red. The one that resembles the VMS most closely has distinctive hairs on the leaves, however, and those aren't shown on the VMS, but maybe the hairs are represented differently. The hairs on Smilax aspera, for example, resemble beard stubble, so perhaps the tendril that resembles a face with a long beard is a mnemonic. The reason I hesitated on Smilax, is because there's another plant in the VMS that might be interpreted as Smilax, which has leaves more similar to Smilax (plant 96v).
- I considered the various Vitis species because they are all vines (and some have red fruit) and the tendrils are long, but the leaves of most of them are palmate, not hastate, so that narrows it down to only a few that might fit.
- Muehlenbeckia sagittifolia (which used to be called Coccoloba or Polygonum) is viny, has hastate leaves, and spikes of pink/red round flowers. When I saw this plant, I realized the round shapes that look like seeds or berries in the VMS drawing could also be round reddish flowers like those of Muehlenbeckia.
- Some of the Cissus plants might qualify, they are viny, with berries, and some of them have hastate leaves, but they tend to grow in Asia and Australia.
- A couple of the Rumex species are a good match for the leaves and seeds, but I downgraded Rumex for a while because I thought the leaves were always a basal clump, until I found some growing in this area that send up vine-line shoots, so it's still on the list. It does not have tendrils at the ends of the stalks, but the seeds at the top do sometimes drop off first, leaving a bare stem, and I've always wondered if the tendril shape and the double stem above the root were meant to be mnemonic rather than literal. The roots are a pretty good match. Usually they have tap roots or clumps of roots, but I found a photo of one with a rhizome with successive clumps.
-
RE: f17v
Koen G > 21-09-2016, 07:29 PM
What I like about this plant is that there are enough clues in the image to tell us rather clearly which type of plant it is - a vine. That's a rare luxury in Voynich studies.
Marco - Tamo does have the berries and approximately the leaf shape, but as far as I can see it doesn't have tendrils? Now, it is also called black bindweed, and bindweeds are explicitly associated with Dionysos.
JKP -
If we take the tendril to be a purely mnemonical lengthening of the stalk, that would open up a number of additional possibilities, like Marco's ID as well. To be honest I have no clue about what the root is supposed to represent. I've seen Velinska suggest it's a camel, though in that case I'd expect two humps instead of three. Unless it's three dromedaries
I agree about Smilax - it would be a near perfect match if the leaves looked a bit differently.
Muehlenbeckia sagittifolia seems to have a problem I've encountered in a number of possible ID's as well: the leaves are very long and narrow, making even the broader examples look narrower than the VM plant.
It would be good to have an idea what the significance of the roots could be. There's also the part where two stalks come from the roots and fuse immediately, looking like some kind of needle. -
RE: f17v
-JKP- > 21-09-2016, 10:43 PM
(21-09-2016, 07:29 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[deleted for brevity]
...
It would be good to have an idea what the significance of the roots could be. There's also the part where two stalks come from the roots and fuse immediately, looking like some kind of needle.
It struck me as needle-like, as well, but I wanted to keep an open mind in case it represents something else like a hollow stem or ??? -
RE: f17v
MarcoP > 22-09-2016, 08:06 AM
(21-09-2016, 07:29 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco - Tamo does have the berries and approximately the leaf shape, but as far as I can see it doesn't have tendrils?
Since the wavy stem is apical, I think it possibly is not a tendril.
See also the wavy stems in this illustration by Giorgio Bonelli.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
-
RE: f17v
Koen G > 22-09-2016, 08:51 AM
Apparently tamo is called spekwortel in Dutch - "bacon root". Such names can only lead to disappointment. -
RE: f17v
Sam G > 22-09-2016, 09:35 AM
(21-09-2016, 03:50 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Some more images can be seen in the blog post I linked, but these should give a general impression. Ideas and comments are welcome. I'd also like to know which other ID's for this plant have been proposed.
Not really an "ID", and I suspect you've seen this already, but I came across this recently and couldn't help but notice a certain similarity to f17v:
![[Image: cultura-okor-egyiptom-szolo-bor.jpg]](http://cultura.hu/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/cultura-okor-egyiptom-szolo-bor.jpg)
-
RE: f17v
Koen G > 22-09-2016, 10:04 AM
Sam, I have indeed seen a number of those, but had not yet made the link. This one shows beautifully how the way the plant is arranged along the page would have reminded the viewers of the way grapes are grown. Nice find!
This makes me think about the way Diane usually describes the large plants as referring to several plants at once. It took me a long time to adapt my mind to that way of thinking, but looking into Dionysian imagery and reading about it, I have learned that grape vines and "wild" vines were basically the same thing to the ancients. One was just wild and the other cultivated.
It might be the case then, that this image, apart from for example Smilax aspera, also refers to the grape, or at least a similarly cultivated crop. Or it was meant to remind the viewer of the way grapes are cultivated.