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Voynich Welsh Numerology
- Voynich Welsh Numerology
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RE: f49r Eve and the Serpent in the Garden
Koen G > 16-11-2016, 08:11 PM
That does add another nail in the coffin. This encoding process does not explain the structure we see in Voynichese. -
RE: f49r Eve and the Serpent in the Garden
stellar > 16-11-2016, 09:46 PM
(16-11-2016, 08:07 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(16-11-2016, 12:02 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... then replaced the words with other words with the same numeric value, then invented the letters and after all, copy the text on the parchment.
This is what I call too complex.
I fully agree. It is straightforward to convert Voynichese words to numbers, but the author would have had to take the numbers (1-9) that he got out of a plain text, and convert these to several thousand different words.
The process how he would have done that is not at all described.
I see this as a typical consequence of the 'decoding approach'. People tend to concentrate on what would be the method to convert the MS text to plain text. For me, it is important to always try to keep in mind what the encoder would have done, i.e. the 'encoding approach'.![[Image: CxaVS9CUkAAOtGF.jpg]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxaVS9CUkAAOtGF.jpg)
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Rene,
Lets take the word in your text, "process", which adds to a 5 then the author just has to write a VMS word which adds to 5. The encoding process is quite easy, but extremely hard to break using languages as frequency analysis. As you know there is a number of ways a VMS word could add to 5 and that is why this code is so complex. I simply could just use one VMS glyph as a 5.
PROCESS
7963511=5
![[Image: CxaTlQUVIAAgj3D.jpg]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxaTlQUVIAAgj3D.jpg)
![[Image: numerologychart18.jpg]](https://voynichnumerology.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/numerologychart18.jpg)
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RE: f49r Eve and the Serpent in the Garden
-JKP- > 17-11-2016, 01:49 AM
Stellar, what is the point of encoding something in a way that the person who wrote it can't decode it either?
Whether it's complex or cumbersome/unwieldy (or both), what you are proposing is a one-way cipher. Quite useless. Might as create a manuscript with random words—it would be faster. -
RE: f49r Eve and the Serpent in the Garden
Witch Mountain > 17-11-2016, 02:44 AM
Intriguing, Stellar. Why do you suppose the author would not just encode the Genesis passage as it is written in the Bible, instead of this syntax, which seems somewhat unnatural: "And serpent more subtle beasts the every field Lord Creator make..." -
RE: f49r Eve and the Serpent in the Garden
VViews > 17-11-2016, 11:35 AM
Stellar,
it would be good if you could answer the many questions that various posters have asked you in this thread.
The questions about your method are substantial and ignoring them to try and divert attention to another folio in a new thread is not constructive to anyone taking your process seriously.
So again, my question was: if you really think your method works then why does the text stop mid-sentence and does the second paragraph on the folio also follow the Genesis 3 text?
Also please answer:
Koen Gh asked: "your system involves looking at the pictures and finding a text that somewhat matches them. But how would you translate a full text page without any images?"
JKP asked, " what is the point of encoding something in a way that the person who wrote it can't decode it either"?
And WitchMountain asked: "Why do you suppose the author would not just encode the Genesis passage as it is written in the Bible, instead of this syntax, which seems somewhat unnatural". -
RE: f49r Eve and the Serpent in the Garden
stellar > 17-11-2016, 10:38 PM
(15-11-2016, 10:42 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stellar: if I understand correctly, your system involves looking at the pictures and finding a text that somewhat matches them. But how would you translate a full text page without any images?
The serpent at the bottom of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the image from where I got the idea for Genesis 3.
On a side note:
If my system were flawed can you prove that this picture is wrong for the labels I provide in the below image? What are the odds of my code equaling these numbers for the labels and all the labels having a relation to one another? Not to mention that Pleiade is just what many VMS scholars believe the 7 stars to be. The fact that the VMS is not in a natural language and probably a cipher which I have provided makes a great deal of sense. Yes a language can be hidden as numbers for glyph's (in a VMS Vord) and then the glyph's are arranged in such a way in which it prevents a natural language, that seems obvious to me. Also Dee was in search for a universal language and when using numerology or a number system any language can be used. The VMS may very well use several languages. Koen if it was a straight forward language then a simple frequency analysis would have decoded it long ago.
For Genesis 3 sure this all could be wrong or I may have hit some words who is to say. I agree to to disagree that my system is flawed with you. Check out my Astronomy page and see how many labels I correctly hit.
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![[Image: pleiade1.jpg]](https://voynichnumerology.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/pleiade1.jpg)
Another side note:
D'Imperio the Author of "Elegant Enigma", she worked with the NSA, writes that numerology might be used in attacking the Voynich as a parallel for Cosmology!
And for me why not the whole document!
See Page 25!
![[Image: CxfljTPVEAAfDG_.jpg:large]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxfljTPVEAAfDG_.jpg:large)
![[Image: CxflbEfUoAAnsDB.jpg:large]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxflbEfUoAAnsDB.jpg:large)
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RE: f49r Eve and the Serpent in the Garden
-JKP- > 17-11-2016, 10:54 PM
(17-11-2016, 10:38 PM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
For Genesis 3 sure this all could be wrong or I may have hit some words who is to say. I agree to to disagree that my system is flawed with you. Check out my Astronomy page and see how many labels I correctly hit.
There's no way to know whether you correctly hit any labels because you ASSUMED these were the names of stars, FOUND stars that matched an integer with a method you assumed (numerology) and a language you assumed (Welsh), and then assumed you were right.
These might not be the names of stars at all. They might be the names of plants or persons of the nobility disguised as stars. If it's encrypted (as you are also assuming) it's encrypted for a reason, not to obscure the obvious. Rather than developing a method and trying to affirm that method, you are just guessing.
If it turns out that even one name is correct out of your hundreds of guesses, you'll probably claim you were right... but you have to remember, even a broken clock is right twice a day. -
RE: f49r Eve and the Serpent in the Garden
stellar > 17-11-2016, 11:03 PM
(17-11-2016, 02:44 AM)Witch Mountain Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Intriguing, Stellar. Why do you suppose the author would not just encode the Genesis passage as it is written in the Bible, instead of this syntax, which seems somewhat unnatural: "And serpent more subtle beasts the every field Lord Creator make..."
Thank you Dear Witch Mountain,
1) All can say is if it were Dee maybe he was not using a Bible at the time and relied on memory.
2) This too puzzled me for syntax: Yet Dee did intermix Welsh with English, example this poem!
Byd and Twys Welsh words.
This Letter third and last I minde to make,
At your request for very vertues sake;
Your written panges, and methods set aside,
From that I byd, looke that you never slide.
Cut that in Three, which Nature hath made One,
Then strengthen hyt, even by it self alone,
Wherewith then Cutte the poudred Sonne in twayne,
By length of tyme, and heale the woonde againe.
The self same Sunne twys yet more, ye must wounde,
Still with new Knives, of the same kinde, and grounde;
Our Monas trewe thus use by natures Law,
Both binde and lewse, only with rype and rawe,
And ay thanke God who only is our Guyde,
All is ynugh, no more then at this Tyde. -
RE: f49r Eve and the Serpent in the Garden
stellar > 17-11-2016, 11:08 PM
(15-11-2016, 10:52 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stellar,
So the paragraph just ends mid-sentence with "Serpent said to woman God"?
What about the second paragraph on that page, does the sentence continue there? Or what is your interpretation of that paragraph?
Also, in your reply to JKP you say you chose particular words because were just "following along with Genesis 3" but I'm sorry to say, that seems like pretty poor methodology.
How do you know the author might not just be referencing the first few words of Genesis 3 about serpents, to go on and talk about something else entirely, such as:
"Now, serpents are subtle beasts, but here's what I use to keep them out of my garden" or "Now, serpents are subtle beasts, but they're nothing compared to our local tax collectors"?
I'll have to decode the 2nd paragraph to to know what it says VViews. -
RE: f49r Eve and the Serpent in the Garden
stellar > 17-11-2016, 11:14 PM
(16-11-2016, 12:02 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@JKP
So, if I understand correctly, the manuscript was first written in plain language, then all the letters were summed, then replaced the words with other words with the same numeric value, then invented the letters and after all, copy the text on the parchment.
This is what I call too complex. It might work for a small post, but for a long manuscript?
This is it you got it! however I believe the Author kept a dictionary with quire numbers from the VMS with the plain text and the numbers next to the words used as a reference. It is known that Dee annotated a Welsh to English Dictionary I would love to see it.
(16-11-2016, 08:11 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That does add another nail in the coffin. This encoding process does not explain the structure we see in Voynichese.
Please explain?