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labels as words
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RE: labels as words
Koen G > 22-08-2017, 09:08 PM
Now these are interesting and clear statistics, Marco.
Of course, since these offer for a direct way to compare Voynichese to other languages, I wonder what the stats would look like for a language without common endings in nouns (-us, -a, -um). Do you have an automatic way to count the initial and final letters in a text or does this have to be done manually? -
RE: labels as words
Emma May Smith > 22-08-2017, 09:15 PM
That's a great analysis Marco. There is almost certainly going to be a larger element of borrowing among plant names than the text as a whole. (It should be possible to isolate structurally different words as the most likely loanwords.)
However, the lack of [q] in plant names is also seen with star names and zodiac labels. Were all three to have the same source language, that would be fine. Yet it is less likely, if they come from two or more different sources, that they would lack the same characteristics. -
RE: labels as words
-JKP- > 23-08-2017, 03:19 AM
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Marco, we must think alike. I have very similar data and I also used Matthioli as one of the comparison references!!
I had a MAJOR deja vu experience when looking at your post!
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RE: labels as words
Emma May Smith > 23-08-2017, 03:04 PM
(23-08-2017, 03:19 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Marco, we must think alike. I have very similar data and I also used Matthioli as one of the comparison references!!
I had a MAJOR deja vu experience when looking at your post!
Do you have a link to your research? -
RE: labels as words
-JKP- > 23-08-2017, 05:07 PM
(23-08-2017, 03:04 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(23-08-2017, 03:19 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Marco, we must think alike. I have very similar data and I also used Matthioli as one of the comparison references!!
I had a MAJOR deja vu experience when looking at your post!
Do you have a link to your research?
Emma, it is a MOUNTAIN of research, 10 years worth. I'm running two businesses, I work 10–12 hours a day 7 days a week, so finding time to WRITE UP the research is almost impossible. I do most of my VMS research when I should be sleeping.
I have been TRYING to write it up, I have close to 2800 pages of notes, but it's in note form (not including the lists and charts). It's not just random data or the bits and pieces I find time to post here. It's pretty targeted, but it's overwhelming to find enough time to consolidate the related pieces and put them into paper form. It's beyond what one can explain in a blog (or even many blogs). It needs to be written up in "white paper" form.
What I have has a slightly different focus from what Marco is posting, and I've formatted the charts a little differently, but there's a significant degree of overlap. That's both good and bad. It's bad because it means duplication of effort, but good in that the data can be cross-checked and comes from slightly different perspectives (which is almost always a good thing). -
RE: labels as words
-JKP- > 23-08-2017, 05:40 PM
(22-08-2017, 05:20 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
In both the Latin and Italian examples it seems that the differences between plain text and labels are partly related with the labels being borrowed from different languages (with Italian borrowing from Latin and Greek and Latin borrowing from Greek). This is something I hadn't considered and that could also have an influence on the Voynichese statistics.
One of the things I mentioned briefly when commenting on P. Lockerby's "Latin" transcript of the VMS is that even if the VMS is not in Latin, assuming there is natural language, there may be Latin words sprinkled in.
I was thinking in terms of loan words that show up in many languages. In English, many medical terms are based on Latin, music terms are Italian, and cooking terms are French. This kind of dynamic existed in the middle ages, as well. For example, many Latin documents have Greek loan words, many French and German manuscripts have Latin and Greek loan words, many English and Flemish documents have French and Norse loan words.
The Linnaean system of binomial plant names frequently uses 1) Latin- or Greek-derived terminology for the first part and 2) a characteristic of the plant (e.g., the habitat or foliage), or the name of the discoverer, as the second part. Linnaeus didn't invent this system, it was already in use in some areas, but it became standardized due to his influence on the field. This system is now used in every language.
So, it occurred to me that even if the VMS were in Cuman, Czech, Romani, Turkish, Hindi, or something else, labels or headings for specific illustrations like plants or stars could be based on Greek or Latin root words or loan words. If that were so, deciphering the labels might not necessarily contribute greatly to understanding the rest of the text, especially if the proportion of loan words is small.
To give more concrete examples, it's pretty easy to expand out some of the words in the knapweed plant-page using Latin abbreviation conventions to yield words like Centaurus and Centaur. Also, if you want an example in Greek, it's pretty easy to use a substitution code and abbreviation for the ending to get the word "odorata" or odoratos (ɒδɒρɒτος) out of the second vord on the viola plant page. In fact, I've found dozens of words that could be expanded into valid Latin or Greek words (without cheating and changing the substitution rules as you go) but (and this is the important part) the systems that yield these words do not generalize to the text as a whole.
There are too many people who find a word here and there and announce it with great fanfare (or at least with a certain level of excitement) without checking to see whether the system works on the rest of the manuscript or even a reasonable chunk of text. I've found MANY more words in more consistent ways (and with much better grammar) than most people who claim to have solved the VMS, yet I'm pretty darned sure I do not have the solution. -
RE: labels as words
Emma May Smith > 23-08-2017, 05:49 PM
(23-08-2017, 05:07 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(23-08-2017, 03:04 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(23-08-2017, 03:19 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Marco, we must think alike. I have very similar data and I also used Matthioli as one of the comparison references!!
I had a MAJOR deja vu experience when looking at your post!
Do you have a link to your research?
Emma, it is a MOUNTAIN of research, 10 years worth. I'm running two businesses, I work 10–12 hours a day 7 days a week, so finding time to WRITE UP the research is almost impossible. I do most of my VMS research when I should be sleeping.
I have been TRYING to write it up, I have close to 2800 pages of notes, but it's in note form (not including the lists and charts). It's not just random data or the bits and pieces I find time to post here. It's pretty targeted, but it's overwhelming to find enough time to consolidate the related pieces and put them into paper form. It's beyond what one can explain in a blog (or even many blogs). It needs to be written up in "white paper" form.
You have said this before, multiple times. You clearly have a lot of time for research but very little for sharing. Will we ever get to see this research except in dribs and drabs as you casually drop into a conversation to say you did the same thing X number of years ago?
As far as I'm concerned, Marco is the first, and only, person to have carried out this comparison. I guess your research was wasted. -
RE: labels as words
-JKP- > 23-08-2017, 05:54 PM
(23-08-2017, 05:49 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You have said this before, multiple times. You clearly have a lot of time for research but very little for sharing. Will we ever get to see this research except in dribs and drabs as you casually drop into a conversation to say you did the same thing X number of years ago?
As far as I'm concerned, Marco is the first, and only, person to have carried out this comparison. I guess your research was wasted.
No. I do not have a lot of time for research. I give up sleep and my social life to do VMS research and my forum posts are hit-and-run while files are uploading or saving. It just adds up after 10 years.
No, my research was not wasted. Marco and I both chose Matthioli as comparison but we used different choices for the other comparison, so we have branched out in slightly different directions (which is good).
If someone wants to pay my bills and take care of the people who depend on me for their livelihoods, I will GLADLY spend all day every day writing it up. I am eager and aching to find the time to do it. -
RE: labels as words
davidjackson > 23-08-2017, 09:25 PM
Jkp, just make sure that you leave instructions that if you're ever hit by a bus, all that research is to be boxed up and shipped to the forum
Great stuff going on here. Could this indicate that there are two levels of 'encryption': abbreviations -seen in the labels- them abbreviations and something else for the bulk text? -
RE: labels as words
Koen G > 23-08-2017, 09:40 PM
Or does it just mean that initial o favors nouns? Or even 'names'?