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What do you make of this plant? (f89v)

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  • What do you make of this plant? (f89v)
• What do you make of this plant? (f89v)

• RE: What do you make of this plant? (f89v)

  Anton > 25-08-2016, 12:09 AM

  But does that suggest any plant names?

• RE: What do you make of this plant? (f89v)

  Koen G > 25-08-2016, 07:48 AM

  That's really hard to say - the elements to consider are the following:
  
  - Which word did the deer bring to mind? A direct reference to Heracles' You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.? Or just any regular vocabulary item for the tye of deer/gazelle that was known to the original audience?
  - I may have to reconsider the label reading. I very gradually construct my understanding of the glyphs based on interaction of the mnemonic and plant name. Only if they have some overlap and suit a way to interpret the label, I pin down an identification. 
  
  I still think Heracles' club is alluded to in the shape of its rightmost leaf, but the original composer of these images was a master in saying many things with one image. I am certainly willing to consider that Heracles' deer was intended here, but that would mean starting all over again.
  
  One thing I am more certain about is that a type of wood is intended, timber or a "woody" product. The first word of the label is clearly an Indic form of the Proto-Indo–European *deru. In modern varieties, it takes forms like dar, dal... Modern English words derived from the same root are tree, tray, tar...  Cinnamon in Hindi and related languages is called Dalchini, "Chinese wood".
  
  I fully admit that this is one of the analyses I was least certain about. But it will take some time to check the "deer" option fully.

• RE: What do you make of this plant? (f89v)

  MarcoP > 25-08-2016, 11:11 AM

  (24-08-2016, 05:55 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you would remove the colouring from the plant, does it not resemble Orchidaceae ?

  
  Or, considering the green color, one could think of a fern, maybe Adder's Tongue Ophioglossum Vulgatum.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  

  ---

  Arum Maculatum can have greenish flowers.
  
  

• RE: What do you make of this plant? (f89v)

  MarcoP > 25-08-2016, 01:00 PM

  Dragon Arum / Dracunculus Vulgaris was often represented with a zoomorphic root (attached BNF It. 1108). The wihte spathe is greenish when unfolding and can have irregular, almost jagged, borders (see picture). If the Voynich illustration corresponds to dracunculus, the spike is missing, but this is the case also in the BNF illustration. I don't think I know of examples with no leaves, but the "pharma" section seems to present "abbreviated" illustrations of plants: one more of its many peculiarities.
  
  

• RE: What do you make of this plant? (f89v)

  Koen G > 25-08-2016, 01:24 PM

  Thanks for the examples, Marco! I do agree that it looks like something emerging from a white, curled up outer leaf or "shell". What I find weird though, is that is is the emerging thing which is green and has a serrated edge, like we would expect in a leaf. Furthermore, even the little twig upon which the white thing grows has been given a "woody" color, which is a far from ideal representation of the natural appearance of the plant.
  
  But of course I agree that the small plants are not realistic and have even been altered, so a flower like these remains a possibility.

• RE: What do you make of this plant? (f89v)

  MarcoP > 25-08-2016, 02:12 PM

  Of course, the image is not clear. I attach an image-processed photograph trying to explain how I see it. I think the illustration represents a single You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., i.e. a kind of leaf. In Dracunculus, the spathe can be whitish / greenish, with an irregular border.
  
  In my opinion, the central green area is the inner surface of the Spathe and the two white areas make part of the outer surface of the same Spathe. We can see the inside and the outside because the surface is curved forming something like a cylinder or cone. This spathe looks to me like a leaf, green on one side and white on the the other, that curved to form a closed receptacle. 
  
  As in the BNF manuscript, the spike at the center of the spathe is not represented in the illustration.
  
  

• RE: What do you make of this plant? (f89v)

  Koen G > 25-08-2016, 02:28 PM

  Ah, I see what you mean - I had never looked at it as a single curled up surface. If we want to assume that there is some botanical realism to the imagery, then something like this is definitely an option.

• RE: What do you make of this plant? (f89v)

  Linda > 21-11-2016, 08:42 PM

  (23-08-2016, 09:31 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As you may or may not know, I have devoted much attention to various plants on the 89v foldout in the small plants section. I would like to know what you think about a specific plant, because at the moment I'm stuck. It's the one in the middle on this picture:
  
  
  
  In my You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I explore the symbolical imagery hidden in this plant. I also argue that the label indicates that this plant or its fruit was valued for its juice, but of course you needn't take that into account if you find the arguments unconvincing.
  
  However, since I believe the image is high in symbolical content, I am having a hard time pinning down a botanical identification. It is especially the structure pictured below that looks rather strange and perhaps even biologically impossible. My hypothesis is that a fruit (white) and the leaf (green) have been imposed on each other in order to create the symbolical image. Another possibility is that the green part is not a leaf at all but rather the juice emerging from the opened fruit.
  
  
  
  Any ideas to which plant or plant parts this drawing might refer to?

  
  Here's a hint at the roots:
  

• RE: What do you make of this plant? (f89v)

  Koen G > 21-11-2016, 09:17 PM

  Hey Linda, nice to see you on the forum again. You know, that's actually a great suggestion - wonder why I didn't think of it myself 
  The question remains why the green thing is represented with a serrated edge... but the resemblance between the white thing and the nut's shell is dead on.

• RE: What do you make of this plant? (f89v)

  -JKP- > 22-11-2016, 01:01 AM

  (21-11-2016, 09:17 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hey Linda, nice to see you on the forum again. You know, that's actually a great suggestion - wonder why I didn't think of it myself 
  The question remains why the green thing is represented with a serrated edge... but the resemblance between the white thing and the nut's shell is dead on.

  
  
  Many large hard seeds (e.g., nut seeds, sunflower seeds, etc.) will look like that when the first leaf emerges and pushes apart the mouth of the seed. But... new leaves are rarely serrated, they tend to be smooth and then the next set of leaves will have serrations typical to the species of plant so... if the drawing represents a newly emerging leaf, then it is symbolic of the mature plant's leaf, not the first leaf that comes from the seed.
  
  The same with the roots. A newly emerging plant has very little root. The root in the picture is a grown plant.
  
  
  It doesn't quite look like the various plants that have a spathe and spadix and these plant forms don't have leaves within the spathe. The VMS illustrator can accurately draw a spadix (there are some in the big-plant drawings) and doesn't drawn them like this. It does look more like a leaf (or symbolic leaf of a more mature plant).
  
  
  
  When I first saw it, it reminded me of a clam shell, which made me think of the various flowers that look like animal mouths (snap-dragons, pea flowers, etc.). Bean seeds are hard, like nuts, and the flowers have that puffy rounded look. Perhaps it's symbolic of both the seed and the flower at the same time?
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