Linda > 15-08-2016, 11:01 AM
MarcoP > 15-08-2016, 12:32 PM
-JKP- > 15-08-2016, 06:23 PM
(15-08-2016, 11:01 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I keep seeing this diagram identified as Atropa belladonna. I can't see why, everything about the diagram is a mismatch with this plant. It doesn't have equal leaves, no explanation for the different colours, belladonna's bracts don't hug the berry, and they are pointy. The root is wrong, too, seems more like a tree or shrub root, looks like a calloused foot.
To me the Dana Scott identification of Syzygium aromaticum seems to fit much better than any of the other identifications I've seen reported for this plant (St. John's Wort, black nightshade, etc). The only problem I see is that only the clove top shows and is shown larger than it would be in comparison to the leaves. I think the largeness could be to show what part of the plant is used, where to find it on the plant, and that one is generally enough in terms of usage. The fact that it is not 100% obvious is perhaps an attempt to keep the knowledge semi-hidden from the casual observer.
Is there a better fit for this plant drawing? It's not striking me as familiar other than the clove top, and there is also the 'clavus' connection with the word clove and the calloused foot look of the root. But it's not perfect, so I'm open to a better identification. I find that a lot of plant diagrams strike me as looking like weeds I am familiar with in North America, but they are old world plants originally, but the ID of cloves would not fit that pattern. However cloves have been used for millennia, so I could see it as a known plant, just as we know it today, at least the part that is used.
Linda > 15-08-2016, 07:25 PM
(15-08-2016, 12:32 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from Auslasser's herbal.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from Egerton 747.
Cloves (left) and Belladonna (right) from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1621).
(15-08-2016, 02:13 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linda
Have you read Diane's post about this plant as cloves?
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Yes, although I am not sure of the other plant being indicated, nor the robes/clavus connection. But we appear to agree regarding the basic identification.
I had at one time thought clavus referred to claws, but rather it refers to nails (the type you hammer, which the clove spice resembles, hence the name). I found it funny that in English, there is a double "pun" you can make with the root, both with regard to the callouses and the toe nails homophone connection.
MarcoP > 15-08-2016, 08:01 PM
Linda > 15-08-2016, 10:47 PM
(15-08-2016, 06:23 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linda, St. John's wort as an ID is not a bad idea. Note how smooth and rounded the VMS elliptical leaves are. Many species of St. John's wort have that characteristic and most of them also have the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Several species have berries, including the species most often listed as a medicinal plant in old herbals.Hi JKP
Also note the slightly bendy branches on the left and right sides. St. John's wort has that characteristic also. It's a mostly but not completely an upright plant but when the branches get long, they lean a little and there are a couple of species that are somewhat viny and grow almost horizontal. Some of the hypericums have clasping leaves.
In contrast to the VMS image, clove leaves are fairly pointed and the margins often lightly ruffled or irregular. The stems can be reddish but the leaves do not have that red/green that is so characteristic of St. John's wort. Clove is much more treelike and I'm not aware of any clove species with clasping leaves—the leaves are petioled. Also, the clove "fruit" is quite narrow and most herbals draw it that way, whereas the VMS drawing lacks that detail.
I'm not saying plant 1v is St. John's wort, there are a few other possibilities, but I do believe it fits the VMS drawing better than clove.
(15-08-2016, 08:01 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Linda,
I had no particular point in mind. I just think it's interesting to compare the Voynich ms with other ancient images.
Thank you for the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.! Eastern herbals are not very familiar to me, since they are not easy to search online and I can't read Arabic nor Persian. From the botanical point of view, this illustration does not seem very informative to me: the plant at the middle of that page is identical to the one at the bottom, but for the color of the berries. If I understand correctly, it is filzahraj /"fila zahra" i.e. lycium:
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I don't think it should be that similar to cloves, but I am not an expert so I may very well be wrong.
Also, I don't think this page represents hairy roots, but green grass at the base of the plants.
-JKP- > 16-08-2016, 03:12 AM
Linda > 16-08-2016, 07:42 AM
(16-08-2016, 03:12 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If I were to rate the accuracy of the VMS drawings (the ones that are more recognizable) on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give them about a 6.5 or 7 (depending on the drawing). They're not bad for their time and some details are drawn better than their predecessors.
If I were to rate the Al-Qazwini plants on the same scale, most of them wouldn't do much better than a three. Which makes me suspect that any resemblance between the VMS plant and the Al-Qazwini clove plant is probably coincidental.
I'm not ruling out that the VMS illustrator had access to other sources, but my overall feeling is that they were used more as references than as sources from which to slavishly copy. It's one of the reasons the VMS holds my attention. If it were a mere copy, it would be uninteresting.
davidjackson > 16-08-2016, 09:00 AM
Quote:Part of this drawing (root and leaves only) is repeated on Pharma page f102r1[3,2].
The plant looks basically normal, except for the very peculiar root.
Quote:Atropa Belladona (deadly nightshade) , [i]Hyoscyamus niger (henbane) , [i]Solanum nigrum (black nightshade)
, Solanum dulcamara (bittersweet) , and perhaps other somewhat less likely species such as Withania somnifera and Physalis alkekengi. ETC[/i][/i]