Koen G > 29-08-2016, 09:07 PM
(29-08-2016, 08:54 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It seems to me that the most precise matches are coming from these old mosaics, despite the fact that there are vastly more surviving medieval manuscripts than mosaics, and of course we are only looking at mosaics in the first place because there are basically no surviving ancient books (which is where the best comparisons would almost certainly be found). So I think that's a strong indication that these similarities are not coincidental. Based purely on numbers, we would expect all the best matches to be in medieval manuscripts.
Searcher > 30-08-2016, 10:04 AM
ReneZ > 30-08-2016, 12:27 PM
Koen G > 30-08-2016, 02:00 PM
Quote:Talking about sources of a certain image, but not about derivation history of the medieval art, if you think that ancient mosaics can be a source of the VMs Leo, why do you think that bestiaries or heraldic pictures can't be a source of it, as in any of these cases "our" Leo looks unusual?
In the second case, at least, the aim of the author is clear and natural – to make zodiacal diagrams, which represent Zodiac or an astrological calendar. What is the aim of the author in the case of intentional depiction of the modified leopard (panther) here, if it doesn't relate to Zodiac at all?
Searcher > 30-08-2016, 07:40 PM
(30-08-2016, 02:00 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....to give you something concrete, these are some of the things I currently find likely. I'll add a (D) to those that are based on Diane's conclusions, (K) to my own additions/points of disagreement:
- The first documents that provided the base for the various sections were from the Hellenistic period (D)
- The various sections were not originally meant to for a whole. The manuscript is compound. (D)
- What unifies the material is its relevance for the Eastern trade (routes, products, astrology, navigation...) (D)
- The reason why the material was maintained relatively unaltered for such a long time is that trade = money. (D)
- References are made to the kind of astronomy the average Greek would know (Aratus...) (K)
- The small plants section was probably something like an illustrated glossary, teaching Greek speakers the most relevant foreign names for plants or derived products. (K)
Quote:You can see that the second approach requires more steps than the first one. If you think the MS is the work of a 15thC creative individual, you just look for the closest matching contemporary source and everything that does not match is the result of this author's unusual world view.
Quote:What we are trying to do in this thread, is to find artifacts that might actually explain the weird aspects of the imagery. This is more difficult, but ultimately has more explanatory value and allows us to say more about the way this material was created and altered throughout the centuries.
Diane > 03-09-2016, 10:56 AM
Searcher > 03-09-2016, 02:55 PM
(03-09-2016, 10:56 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Koen,
I realise that people like Searcher don't quite know which parts of an image are significant for comparing imagery, and that others are so used to creating comparisons at a fairly low level of sophistication, but even so it shouldn't be that difficult to realise that this feline in the VMS isn't a lion, and isn't a medieval heraldic figure.
Koen G > 03-09-2016, 05:22 PM
Koen G > 12-09-2016, 07:01 PM
-JKP- > 12-09-2016, 11:41 PM
(12-09-2016, 07:01 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A friendly challenge for those who have not read my blog post in which I address some issues raised in this thread. This is what I believe to be a parallel example, though one that is more accessible since the line of transmission has been exceptionally well documented.
This image is from a 15th century Italian manuscript about the constellations. We see a kneeling naked man with a sword in one hand, and a satisfied man-skin in the other.
My questions are:
1) Who is this man? How do you know?
2) Why is he holding a man-skin?
3) If we go all the way back through the line of transmission, what are the roots of this image?
4) Af far as I know, this composition is unique. Is this the work of an author with a special world view?