davidjackson > 09-09-2016, 01:20 PM
ThomasCoon > 09-09-2016, 01:43 PM
(09-09-2016, 01:15 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Thomas,
why should not an inflected agglutinative language be enough to explain this?
From Aeneides Book I (much shorter than the VMS):
qui
quibus
quicquid
quid
quidve
quies
quiescit
quietas
quietem
quietum
quin
quinquaginta
quippe
quirinus
quis
quisquam
quisquis
quo
quocirca
quod
quodcumque
quondam
quoque
quorum
quos
quove
(09-09-2016, 01:20 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A universal language that groups together modifiers would have that charactaristic.
ie:
plant|medicinal|lunar|leo|green
qot ch e o l
MarcoP > 09-09-2016, 02:15 PM
(09-09-2016, 01:15 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Thomas,I am sorry, it seems my example was misleading and my question was lost.
why should not an inflected agglutinative language be enough to explain this?
ThomasCoon > 09-09-2016, 02:43 PM
(09-09-2016, 02:15 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am sorry, it seems my example was misleading and my question was lost.
I don't think that Voynichese can be Latin, but I think that Voynichese can be a morphological rich language (like Latin) with a strong agglutinative component (more than Latin, but in manuscripts spaces are sometimes omitted, with the result of a pseudo-agglutination).
As Emma wrote, the fact that words have repeating prefixes and suffixes really points to the fact that spaces are meaningful.
Explaining sequencies like
qokeedy.qokeedy.qokeedy.qotey.qokeey.qokeey
certainly is difficult and I cannot think of anything but some kind of intensification by repetition.
But is
qokeedyqokeedyqokeedyqoteyqokeeyqokeey
easier to explain?
MarcoP > 09-09-2016, 03:46 PM
(09-09-2016, 02:43 PM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't necessarily agree that "the fact that words have repeating prefixes and suffixes really points to the fact that spaces are meaningful." I provided a counter-example in the other thread:
yol ar ar Shaiin seeo Shoesal chetoly qoch qoskeaiin arSheo qochot qosolaiin otchod keesy oeee qochod ...
= Nullo modo dixerunt. Etiam hoc tertium respondete: s...
Key: <y> = N, <ol> = U, <ar> = L, <Sh> or <se> = o, <aiin> = m, <eo> = d, <s> = i, <al> = x, <ch> or <ee> = e, <ot> = r, <qo> = t, <ke> = a, <or> = H, <od> = s
So, in about 15 minutes of effort I can encode a real plaintext (St. Augustine) with contrived spaces, and certain groups (qo) are always in front while others are always in back (aiin)
(09-09-2016, 02:43 PM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1) If you are searching for a natural language for Voynichese and believe the VMS spaces are true, you are almost certainly limited to agglutinative and polysynthetic languages because of the "morphology" of Voynich words (see the <qot> forms). This eliminates most of the languages in Europe.
-JKP- > 09-09-2016, 08:13 PM
Diane > 09-09-2016, 08:54 PM
Quote:This seems to be consistent with where some linguistic research about the ms is going.
stellar > 09-09-2016, 10:44 PM
(09-09-2016, 02:15 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(09-09-2016, 01:15 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Thomas,I am sorry, it seems my example was misleading and my question was lost.
why should not an inflected agglutinative language be enough to explain this?
I don't think that Voynichese can be Latin, but I think that Voynichese can be a morphological rich language (like Latin) with a strong agglutinative component (more than Latin, but in manuscripts spaces are sometimes omitted, with the result of a pseudo-agglutination).
As Emma wrote, the fact that words have repeating prefixes and suffixes really points to the fact that spaces are meaningful.
Explaining sequencies like
qokeedy.qokeedy.qokeedy.qotey.qokeey.qokeey
certainly is difficult and I cannot think of anything but some kind of intensification by repetition.
But is
qokeedyqokeedyqokeedyqoteyqokeeyqokeey
easier to explain?
ThomasCoon > 09-09-2016, 11:04 PM
(09-09-2016, 03:46 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(09-09-2016, 02:43 PM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1) If you are searching for a natural language for Voynichese and believe the VMS spaces are true, you are almost certainly limited to agglutinative and polysynthetic languages because of the "morphology" of Voynich words (see the <qot> forms). This eliminates most of the languages in Europe.I see your point. This seems to be consistent with where some linguistic research about the ms is going.
(09-09-2016, 08:13 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Contrived spaces aren't going to result in VMS-like text on their own. That's why I suggested possible addition of null characters.
A null or two would cancel out many of the "tells" that would identify text as a contrived-space system.
Plus, nulls don't have to be nulls in every instance. They can be positionally dependent to distinguish them from ones that might have linguistic (or structural) meaning.
In the VMS, the g is at the ends of words far more often than one would expect, even in languages with many words ending in vowels. And o is at the beginnings of words with unusual frequency, as well. If they were nulls or semi-nulls, they could be put there to obscure contrived (or arbitrary) spacing.
(09-09-2016, 08:54 PM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thomas,
What Marco says is correct.
Quote:This seems to be consistent with where some linguistic research about the ms is going.
I cannot give you links to all the persons concerned because I don't know which ones Marco meant - no names mentioned.
I do know that Don Hoffmann has been exploring agglutinative structures, of not exactly 'languages' in the formal sense.
I've also very recently published on other forms of text - technical-instructional - which employ strongly abbreviated forms and can be 'agglutinative' - but again not the formal sense.
We have similar forms in every day life e.g take 2gr NaCl. But similar patterns emerge with any number of comparable technical-instructional texts including ones I've tested out such as numerical-coordinate series, or helmsman's orders, or knitting patterns and so forth. If you wrote Latitude and Longitude without superscript you'd get, say 32o45N 33o24W ..
Given that (imo) the map is derived from a Hellenistic one and much of the imagery also, and on one folio is depicted what I have reasonable grounds to believe is an aid for the cosmographer, the Lat.Long. example isn't necessarily hypothetical, either.
Wladimir D > 10-09-2016, 07:19 AM