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An experiment with phonetic writing

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• An experiment with phonetic writing

• RE: An experiment with phonetic writing

  ololololo > 05-09-2026, 12:33 PM

  As promised, we’re experimenting with Chinese . I’ve chosen the Cantonese dialect. The original text is one of the SBS recipes that AI provided me with (I’m also sorry about that).
  Unlike the Ingush language, the methodology for creating the script was different. In the first case, I created it based on a text, highlighting the most frequent syllables along with the letters. Here, I failed to do this, so I turned to conventional phonetics. Overall, this script is much closer to the sounds than the previous one.
  
  I'll give you the text without translation, because that way you'll figure it out right away. I can suggest that you work with writing, and based on the results, find the appropriate recipe (if there is one at all. If it's not there, I'll send the text that the AI gave me).
  
  Hint: the symbols in Voynichese (except for l) are tones.
     
  
  In theory, based on this text, you can adapt the VMS symbols. I’ll work on it...
  
  P.S. Below is the plant in question. It is deliberately depicted this way.

• RE: An experiment with phonetic writing

  ololololo > 05-09-2026, 03:03 PM

  (03-09-2026, 04:05 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I find the other possibility, that they were just taking down sounds, and badly, hard to credit.

  Imagine that you are an Englishman who has come to France. You need to learn the language, and first and foremost, you need to learn to speak it, but not to write it. You have at least roughly learned the necessary words at a conversational level.
  Now you will need to write down a book in French... You can’t read, so you hire someone to dictate it to you. Overall, you’re just recording sounds. And it’s very bad, because you don’t know how to record them correctly. 
  The result will likely be a hard‑to‑read tirade, because, being untrained in written French, you will write the word aujourd’hui as ujuvi (or something similar).

• RE: An experiment with phonetic writing

  ololololo > 06-09-2026, 07:33 PM

  (05-09-2026, 12:33 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In theory, based on this text, you can adapt the VMS symbols. I’ll work on it...

  I do not know how this can be done  I couldn't match the characters of this alphabet with the characters of Voynichese, in all cases I got problematic words.
  But someone can be more creative than me...

• RE: An experiment with phonetic writing

  Jorge_Stolfi > 07-09-2026, 11:46 AM

  (05-09-2026, 12:33 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As promised, we’re experimenting with Chinese . I’ve chosen the Cantonese dialect. The original text is one of the SBS [Shennong Bencao?] recipes that AI provided me with (I’m also sorry about that). ... I turned to conventional phonetics. Overall, this script is much closer to the sounds than the previous one.  ... I can suggest that you work with writing, and based on the results, find the appropriate recipe

  
  I see that in your transcription the second word is repeated two more times near the end of the recipe.
  
  So, assuming the transcription is consistent for that word, one should scan a digital file of the Shennong Bencao (in Chinese characters or Mandarin pinyin, it should make no difference) looking for an entry with the same repeat pattern.
  
  For curiosity, I did that with my transcription of the Starred Parags section, treating commas like word spaces.  My little prog says that parag f104r.43 has 31 tokens and the second token qokaiin is repeated exactly twice at indices 18 and 29 (counting from 0). Maybe...
  
  But probably not, because the VMS Author apparently omitted certain standard fields of the SBJ recipes, including some that occur at the end of most recipes.  If that recipe is typical and complete, the last of the three repeated tokens (third one from the end) is probably 生 = shēng in Mandarin = saang¹ in Cantonese, which means "Grows in" or "Habitat" or "Provenance".
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: An experiment with phonetic writing

  ololololo > 07-09-2026, 12:15 PM

  (07-09-2026, 11:46 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (05-09-2026, 12:33 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As promised, we’re experimenting with Chinese . I’ve chosen the Cantonese dialect. The original text is one of the SBS [Shennong Bencao?] recipes that AI provided me with (I’m also sorry about that). ... I turned to conventional phonetics. Overall, this script is much closer to the sounds than the previous one.  ... I can suggest that you work with writing, and based on the results, find the appropriate recipe

  
  I see that in your transcription the second word is repeated two more times near the end of the recipe.
  
  So, assuming the transcription is consistent for that word, one should scan a digital file of the Shennong Bencao (in Chinese characters or Mandarin pinyin, it should make no difference) looking for an entry with the same repeat pattern.
  
  For curiosity, I did that with my transcription of the Starred Parags section, treating commas like word spaces.  My little prog says that parag f104r.43 has 31 tokens and the second token qokaiin is repeated exactly twice at indices 18 and 29 (counting from 0). Maybe...
  
  But probably not, because the VMS Author apparently omitted certain standard fields of the SBJ recipes, including some that occur at the end of most recipes.  If that recipe is typical and complete, the last of the three repeated tokens (third one from the end) is probably 生 = shēng in Mandarin = saang¹ in Cantonese, which means "Grows in" or "Habitat" or "Provenance".
  
  All the best, --stolfi

  In fact, the trick is only in the characters. You could say it’s the same as pinyin, just with the letters replaced.
  There may not be a recipe. If there isn’t one, I’ll provide the text I used. Well, most likely it won’t, since AI gave it to me.

• RE: An experiment with phonetic writing

  rikforto > 07-09-2026, 12:34 PM

  (05-09-2026, 03:03 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (03-09-2026, 04:05 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I find the other possibility, that they were just taking down sounds, and badly, hard to credit.

  Imagine that you are an Englishman who has come to France. You need to learn the language, and first and foremost, you need to learn to speak it, but not to write it. You have at least roughly learned the necessary words at a conversational level.
  Now you will need to write down a book in French... You can’t read, so you hire someone to dictate it to you. Overall, you’re just recording sounds. And it’s very bad, because you don’t know how to record them correctly. 
  The result will likely be a hard‑to‑read tirade, because, being untrained in written French, you will write the word aujourd’hui as ujuvi (or something similar).

  In this thought experiment I am carrying on conversations in French! To do so I must be able to reliably distinguish between phonemes in context, both as a listener and to a reasonable degree produce them. Otherwise I cannot distinguish between words in a conversation and I cannot participate in those conversations. I cannot then sit down to transcribe the dictation and suddenly be robbed of my ability to make these determinations. I also decided how to correctly transcribe those distinctions---I do know how to record them correctly!
  
  I am not saying there is no room for error, especially if the target text is harder than my conversational level. But if I cannot recover from "ujuvi" "aujourd'hui", I have not recorded French there because the entire purpose of the recording process is to facilitate recovery. If this is the case at scale, I have failed to transcribe French. I have a very hard believing that large tracts of the VMS are incomprehensible for this reason because I would know this as I wrote it because I can speak French and would know if what I was writing was incomprehensible to me! This strains credibility to me; what is this document even supposed to be for?
  
  At any rate, the fact that people who have no exposure to the language of dictation cannot accurately transcribe it is a poor analogy to a thought experiment where the person is presumed to not only be a reasonably high-level speaker of the language, but to have designed an alphabet for systematic use.

• RE: An experiment with phonetic writing

  Jorge_Stolfi > 07-09-2026, 12:46 PM

  (07-09-2026, 12:15 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There may not be a recipe. If there isn’t one, I’ll provide the text I used. Well, most likely it won’t, since AI gave it to me.

  
  I ran my program on my Shennong Bencao file.  It found exactly one recipe with a similar pattern -- namely, the second word is repeated two more times, at indices [n-3] and [n-9]:
  
  蜂子主风头除蛊毒补虚羸伤中久服令人光泽好颜色不老大黄蜂子主心腹胀满痛轻身益气土蜂子主痈肿
  
  This entry is for Bee Larva.  The Gemini lalamo gave me this translation:
    (A)   |Bee larva:
    (A1)  |··[Nature] sweet, neutral.
    (A3)  |··[Mainly for]
    (A31) |····wind-caused headache,
    (A32) |····eliminating magic toxins,
    (A33) |····repairing depletion and emaciation,
    (A34) |····injury to digestive system.
    (A4)  |··[Prolonged consumption]
    (A41) |····makes one's skin lustrous,
    (A42) |····improves complexion,
    (A43) |····prevents aging.
    (B)   |Giant hornet larva:
    (B3)  |··[Mainly for]
    (B31) |····distention, fullness, and pain in torso,
    (B32) |····lightens the body,
    (B33) |····boosts the vital energy
    ©   |Ground-nesting wasp larva:
    (C3)  |··[Mainly for]
    (C31) |····carbuncles,
    (C32) |····abscesses.
  
  That entry apparently is lacking the usual final fields [Another name] and [Provenance].  Si that repeated character is not 生 ("provenance", saang¹ in Cantonese) but 主 ("mainly for", zyu² in Cantonese, daiin in Voynichese...)
  
  According to the Gemini, the Cantonese reading of that recipe is
  
  fung1 zi2 zyu2 fung1 tau4 coi4 gu2 duk6 bou2 heoi1 leoi4 soeng1 zung1 gau2 fuk6 ling6 jan4 gwong1 zaak6 hou2 ngaan4 sik1 bat1 lou5 hing1 san1 jik1 hei3 tou2 fung1 zi2 zyu2 jung1 zung2  
  
  But of course "AI responses may include mistakes. Learn more".  And indeed there is something wrong with that readin, hang on...
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: An experiment with phonetic writing

  Jorge_Stolfi > 07-09-2026, 12:57 PM

  (07-09-2026, 12:46 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But of course "AI responses may include mistakes. Learn more".  And indeed there is something wrong with that readin, hang on...

  
  

  Quote:Me: Please give the full reading again as a single line, without the hanzi in parentheses. Isn't there a missing zyu2 in your response above?
  
  Gemini: You are absolutely right. There was a zyu2 (主) missing right after daai6 wong4 fung1 zi2 (大黄蜂子), and the string had a few spacing and character-matching errors.
  
  Here is the fully corrected, syllable-by-syllable Cantonese Jyutping reading of your Bencao text as a single, continuous line without any Hanzi or parentheses:
  
  fung1 zi2 zyu2 fung1 tau4 coi4 gu2 duk6 bou2 heoi1 leoi4 soeng1 zung1 gau2 fuk6 ling6 jan4 gwong1 zaak6 hou2 ngaan4 sik1 bat1 lou5 daai6 wong4 fung1 zi2 zyu2 sam1 fuk1 zoeng3 mun5 tung3 hing1 san1 jik1 hei3 tou2 fung1 zi2 zyu2 jung1 zung2
  

  
  All the best, while we still can --stolfi

• RE: An experiment with phonetic writing

  Jorge_Stolfi > 07-09-2026, 01:13 PM

  (07-09-2026, 12:34 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In this thought experiment I am carrying on conversations in French! To do so I must be able to reliably distinguish between phonemes in context, both as a listener and to a reasonable degree produce them. Otherwise I cannot distinguish between words in a conversation and I cannot participate in those conversations.

  
  You are just totally wrong.

• RE: An experiment with phonetic writing

  ololololo > 07-09-2026, 01:17 PM

  jan4 sam1 mei6 gam1, zyu2 bou2 ng5 zong6, on1 zing1 san1, ding6 wan4 paak3, zi2 ging1 gwai3, ceoi4 ce4 hei3, ming4 muk6, hoi1 sam1 jik1 zi3. gau2 fuk6 hing1 san1 jin4 nin4
  
  Here is the original text that AI gave me. According to AI, this is a ginseng recipe. But I see that some of the characters overlap.
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