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Assumptions baked into the VMS carbon dating
- Assumptions baked into the VMS carbon dating
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RE: Assumptions baked into the VMS carbon dating
Jorge_Stolfi > 31-08-2026, 09:13 AM
(31-08-2026, 04:54 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.According to the university, the C14 concentration rises slightly following solar flares. These are said to have a cycle of approximately 11 years. Is this even measurable in parchment, and would it make any difference?
The calibration curve should account for that. Maybe that is the cause of the "tremolo" in the more recent part of this graph, after ~1600 (which I suppose is when the solar spot cycle started to be recorded).
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: Assumptions baked into the VMS carbon dating
JustAnotherTheory > 03-09-2026, 08:51 PM
(30-08-2026, 02:16 AM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If we accept Taccola as a source, this would place the lowest boundary for at least the Balneo and Cosmo sections to the 1420s. More realistically the 1430s. That's within the upper range of the younger 1385-1438 peak, but the older 1308-1362 peak implies that the parchment would have been at least 60 years old when used, even up to 125 years.
If I recall correctly, correct me if I'm wrong, both Taccola and Alberti were in Siena at the exact same date, at the end of the 1430s, perhaps 1438.
I'm not suggesting anything, but... -
RE: Assumptions baked into the VMS carbon dating
oshfdk > 03-09-2026, 09:31 PM
(30-08-2026, 12:21 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, the foldout VM f70r2 vs. Taccola's star-sun with face and pipes from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The Voynich one is the last in a series of 3 or even 7 diagrams that appear similar to one another in the layout. If we remove the highlights and just look at the overall page and the images themselves, I don't think it looks like a clear source or related element. The rays in Taccola's don't form 8 symmetric petals, the top ones are much longer, the bottom ones almost merge into one. It's remarkable, but I doubt it's enough to use it to date the Voynich MS.
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RE: Assumptions baked into the VMS carbon dating
Bernd > 04-09-2026, 01:57 AM
Considering how the VM artist apparently re-interpreted the source imagery he copied, I think it's a pretty good match. The best other match for Taccola's star-sun I found is from Leonardo Dati's La Sfera, BNCF, Fondo Nazionale II.II.62, (1471-1500). There are precursors to the Star-Sun dating back to Giovanni Paolo's Paradiso, Yates Thompson MS 36, (after 1444), and probably the Limbourg Brothers Très Riches Heures, (1412-1416), but as with other Taccola-related imagery, Taccola himself appears to be the closest match for the VM.
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RE: Assumptions baked into the VMS carbon dating
oshfdk > 05-09-2026, 01:14 AM
Maybe, the only case of very plausible reinterpretation that I know of is the ages of man (or whatever it's called, with the possible doctor figure), and there it seems quite likely, because a full sequence of parallel images emerges between the Voynich MS and other sources. Here it's just a single image and the differences seem to completely overwhelm the similarities:
Similarities: sun face in the center, 8 segment division
Differences: tubes vs no tubes, line rays vs some kind of membrane, 4 spikes vs 8 short rays and 8 long rays or connectors.
Just looking at it, the only thing in common is the sun and number 8.
The Wikipedia article about the sun in heraldry says "The most usual form, often called sun in splendour or in his glory, consists of a round disc with the features of a human face surrounded by twelve or sixteen rays alternating straight and wavy, which are often said to represent the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of the sun."
Which makes the Voynich MS depiction more standard (8 short wavy rays and 8 long straight rays) with some additional membrane depicting some other property. -
RE: Assumptions baked into the VMS carbon dating
Koen G > 05-09-2026, 12:44 PM
I've said this a million times but I'll say it once more: the VM sun face is not standard. The medieval standard is a disk with a smiley face. The sun itself has eyes, a mouth, a nose. In the VM, a separate personification is inserted into the sun. This is not just me nitpicking, it's a big difference. Some time ago I posted a MS where such personifications in celestial bodies had been erased, presumably because they felt too pagan. Giving the sun facial features is fine, but drawing a person who is the Sun is questionable (unless in some cases where it's a Jesus/God image).
You can find full "heads" in the sun in a few contexts:- Early MSS, still close to classical models
- Renaissance, including proto-renaissance works like Taccola.
- The moon is more flexible, and some German MSS for example depict it as a veiled woman.
The VM sun is not a disk with a face. There is a full personification's head inside the rays. This sun-person, likely male, has a hair style, a chin, a visible ear. It is even separated from the rays by a band with text inside. This is a personification who radiates like the sun. I know I'm being repetitive, just hoping it will stick that this is a different class of depiction from the standard "sun with a face". In Taccola, very similarly, the person in the sun is a clean-shaven young male with a neutral-to-slightly-grumpy expression. It is also separated from the rays by a band, though much smaller and without text. - Early MSS, still close to classical models