- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
I am not convinced by the provenance history of the VMS
- I am not convinced by the provenance history of the VMS
-
RE: I am not convinced by the provenance history of the VMS
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 27-08-2026, 10:53 PM
(27-08-2026, 09:20 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(27-08-2026, 05:58 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here is my expert chart, which others have seen, perhaps, but I don't think you have. Totally and razor sharp on target to your point here, and to the subject and content of this thread:
Just in case, here's a version of your chart with a bit more conventional range visuals, if I understand them correctly. I think it makes the ranges a bit more obvious. If needed, you can use this version in any way you want.
The charts both show that a lot of people guessed wrong.
Indeed, that is no proof for a „forged VMS“ at all. -
RE: I am not convinced by the provenance history of the VMS
JustAnotherTheory > 28-08-2026, 09:33 AM
Thanks @proto57, I spent the past few hours reading your blog, it is very interesting. The parallels with the early microscopes are striking. I searched for other examples of tripod microscopes and "bulby" microscopes from the 19th century, and indeed I found several more in contemporary microscope journals that closely ressemble the containers in the VMS. I will post the results in another thread, in the "Imagery" section of the forum, when I'm ready. -
RE: I am not convinced by the provenance history of the VMS
proto57 > 28-08-2026, 12:58 PM
(27-08-2026, 09:20 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just in case, here's a version of your chart with a bit more conventional range visuals, if I understand them correctly. I think it makes the ranges a bit more obvious. If needed, you can use this version in any way you want.
Thank you, that is much easier to understand. Rich -
RE: I am not convinced by the provenance history of the VMS
proto57 > 28-08-2026, 02:03 PM
(28-08-2026, 09:33 AM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks @proto57, I spent the past few hours reading your blog, it is very interesting. The parallels with the early microscopes are striking. I searched for other examples of tripod microscopes and "bulby" microscopes from the 19th century, and indeed I found several more in contemporary microscope journals that closely ressemble the containers in the VMS. I will post the results in another thread, in the "Imagery" section of the forum, when I'm ready.
Ironically, back when I still thought the VMs was an early 17th century work, critics of my theory pointed out that the microscopes (and opera glasses and telescopes) I was making comparisons to, were all "too new" for my time frame. The point they were making was that they could not be microscopes, it must be a coincidence that so many features were shared by the devices and the cylinders.
Nick Pelling, in fact, took a deep dive into the history of the microscope, exactly because he thought the comparisons seemed to have merit. But when he realized they would have to be "too new", he gave them up again.
Me, on the other hand, feeling they are so strikingly similar, I wasn't ready to give them up as the best comparison... and this caused me to shift my timeline "newer", and then, eventually, to about 1908-1910, where I have been for at least a decade or more. For those unfamiliar, the features I am referring to are: Recessed tops (like lenses), light blue and green "glass" (like early lenses), parallel sides with multiple diameters (as microscopes have sliding sections, for focusing), (possibly) knurled rings (used on microscopes for "grip" to turn and slide the sections), legs on some (to raise the device's objective lens above the specimen), "delphini" shape of those legs (a motif used on 17th and 18th century microscopes), patterns of decoration (like tooling), and colors, similar to the Moroccan leather coverings of many early microscopes, and more. The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (which was on display 1/4 mile from Voynich's Libreria) even has the same coloring:
Here are two Spanish "opera glasses" next to two VMs cylinders:
Of course there are a great many more, in addition to the "curious" fact that many, even long before we were born, who thought that many of the objects in the Voynich strongly resembled microscopic specimens, such as plant and animal cells, diatoms, and more. The even more curious thing about this is that the best comparisons of microscopic plants and animals and features appear almost entirely in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: The Microscope, Jabez Hogg, 1869; Nature Through Microscope & Camera, Kerr, 1909; The Microscope And Its Revelations, William B. Carpenter, 1856-1901. So I could go on, but of course anyone interested can also peruse my blog and see a great man of these points illustrated and explained, as you have.
But I'll leave this with one odd thing, which is I think reflective of the strong sense that many of these cylinders are "optically inspired": Several years ago, the publisher of the most excellent Voynich Replica, had a display set up to advertise their amazing work. Because of these comparisons, they actually had a display of early microscopes! (photo by Rene Zandbergen):
So I think that this is a nagging problem for many, this strong comparison, for while one may strongly believe the Voynich "must" be 15th century today, the striking comparisons to far more modern optical devices is really hard to dismiss.
-
RE: I am not convinced by the provenance history of the VMS
anejati > 30-08-2026, 02:34 AM
No, they aren't microscopes.
"Ornate object made via You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view./You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."could describe such a large variety of objects that it's impossible to narrow it down. They could be pots, kitchenware, musical instruments, shafts, pulleys, pipes, decorative ornaments ... the list is endless. Here's some You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. jars. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. who makes turned ornaments.
If you think they're microscopes you'd have to explain why someone would just randomly draw a large number of pictures of microscopes but never even show a single cell (or any other object!) under a microscope.
Pulling a large number of unsubstantiated ideas out of the air just to support an increasingly unlikely hypothesis is not a route that's likely to really discover anything about the VMS. -
RE: I am not convinced by the provenance history of the VMS
JoJo_Jost > 30-08-2026, 05:57 AM
The beauty of the VMS is that it is structured in such a way that everyone can interpret their own ideas into this manuscript. The author has done this very well.
The downside of the VMS is that afterwards, everyone is completely convinced that they are right and cannot be dissuaded from this belief. The author has probably cast a curse on it that causes this to happen....
-
RE: I am not convinced by the provenance history of the VMS
JustAnotherTheory > 30-08-2026, 11:17 AM
-
RE: I am not convinced by the provenance history of the VMS
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 30-08-2026, 12:48 PM
(28-08-2026, 02:03 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..]
Ironically, back when I still thought the VMs was an early 17th century work, critics of my theory pointed out that the microscopes (and opera glasses and telescopes) I was making comparisons to, were all "too new" for my time frame.[..]
Form follows function.
The rest is decoration and style.
It will be easy to produce any examples of artefacts that stand generally upright, have something like three feet or an interesting rim and are round/cylindrical due to production of their raw material and basic elements.
You can easily extent this to late-ancient roman vessels, 19th-century samowars or some of today’s space rockets (without green colouring yet). None of these designs do proove any earlier or much later connections of VMS to some other time period, nor are they leading to some forgery conclusion. -
RE: I am not convinced by the provenance history of the VMS
JustAnotherTheory > 30-08-2026, 01:08 PM
(30-08-2026, 11:53 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(30-08-2026, 11:17 AM)JustAnotherTheory Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Perhaps a sign of forgery?
Forgery of what?
I could ask the same question if it was NOT a forgery. Why ecrypt a herbal? It makes no (apparent) sense.
In my opinion, a general confusion across experts is a sign that the object being studied might not be a true historic artifact.
Of course, this is just my opinion, but when an MS from the early 15th century (when the vast majority of people were much restricted to travel), contains visual elements from literally every single country in Europe, every single tradition, ranging from England, Spain, France, Germany to Italy, from Michael Scot, Nicolas Oresme to Mariano Taccola, not to mention the apparent weird connections to Syrian ciphers in MS LSJ51 and obscure herbals from the Netherlands like MS 02.48, it is more likely (to me, at least) that this object in question is a creation of one or more forgers, rather than a true 1400s manuscript from Paduan peasants in the illiterate countryside from whence the carbon dating and animal provenance apparently suggest.
A forgery of what? It doesn't matter what. The point is that it might have been made to impress someone with a lot of money who was into this stuff. Cough cough Rudolf II, etc etc. You get the idea.