• Options
• Login
• Desktop Style

f68r: eclipse from 1419?

• Index

  • The Voynich Ninja
  • Voynich Research
  • Astrology & Astronomy
  • f68r: eclipse from 1419?
• f68r: eclipse from 1419?

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  ololololo > 27-07-2026, 11:23 AM

  There is a possibility that this eclipse could have inspired the f68r3 diagram, as the previous two diagrams also show the Sun and the Moon changing places.
  If you look closely at the upper moon on f68r2, you can see its similarity to the "eclipse" on f68r3.
  It could be just the Moon, or the Moon against the Sun.

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  bi3mw > 27-07-2026, 01:54 PM

  If there was indeed a solar eclipse that could be relevant to the VMS, I would bet on the one from 1433:
  
  

  Quote:The Black Hour (1433 CE)
  One of the most celebrated eclipses in the Middle Ages was called the "Black Hour". It happened in Scotland and it has been said that darkness came about 3 pm on June 17, 1433 CE, and was very deep.
  
  Map and eclipse predictions: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  This solar eclipse was visible throughout Europe and still falls within the VMS time frame.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Time (UT1) Position Approximate Location
  13:28 43.5°N / 135.6°W North Pacific (off Canada)
  14:00 63.7°N / 79.5°W Northern Canada
  14:44 64.0°N / 30.6°W North Atlantic (near Greenland/Iceland)
  15:18 56.1°N / 1.9°W Scotland / Northern England
  15:24 54.2°N / 2.3°E Netherlands
  15:30 52.0°N / 6.4°E Germany (Münster area)
  15:32 51.3°N / 7.8°E Germany (Ruhr area)
  15:34 50.5°N / 9.2°E Germany (Kassel area)
  15:36 49.7°N / 10.6°E Germany (Nuremberg area)
  15:38 48.9°N / 12.0°E Germany (Regensburg area)
  15:40 48.0°N / 13.5°E Austria (Linz area)
  15:44 46.2°N / 16.6°E Austria / Hungary
  15:48 44.2°N / 19.9°E Serbia
  15:52 41.9°N / 23.7°E Bulgaria / Greece / North Macedonia
  15:56 39.1°N / 28.3°E Turkey (western Anatolia)
  16:00 35.3°N / 35.1°E Turkey / Syria border
  Limits (U4) 30.6°N / 44.7°E Southern Iraq
  
  1433 VI 17 ( Example )
  

  Coronica zo Collen Wrote:zu dem selven jair, 8 tage vur sent Johans dage mitzsomer, des abendtz na der veirder uren, do hadde men dat schoinste herlichtste eclipsis dat man je geschach. ind it wart dunkel over alle werelt, ind man insach gein licht.
  
  In the same year, 8 days before St.John’s day of the solstice, in the evening at the fourth hour, there was the most beautiful and most magnificent eclipse ever happened. And it was dark over all world, and one could see no light.

  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.   The solar eclipse of 1419 is not listed.

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  denty > 27-07-2026, 06:18 PM

  They are much smaller than I was thinking.
  
  

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  Jorge_Stolfi > 27-07-2026, 07:45 PM

  (26-07-2026, 09:54 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not sure if the table is about future eclipses or the record of past eclipses? It starts with 1406 and ends somehow abruptly with the year of 1462

  
  Predictions based on periodicity are necessarily wrong in the long term, because the astronomical periods are not commensurate.  Thus  it would not be useful to make them for more than a few decades into the future.  No?
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  oshfdk > 27-07-2026, 08:36 PM

  (27-07-2026, 07:45 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Predictions based on periodicity are necessarily wrong in the long term, because the astronomical periods are not commensurate.  Thus  it would not be useful to make them for more than a few decades into the future.  No?

  
  I don't know. If the goal was to observe/witness future eclipses, precision was not very important , if one could compute the solar eclipse with +/- two weeks it's already fine, because the actual eclipse will be on the new moon day of the corresponding lunar month, impossible to miss and easy to compute a few months in advance.
  
  If these were the predictions, I still have no idea what method was used. And how were they able to only (mostly?) predict eclipses which would be visible from Europe. I'm not even sure what method they would use to observe partial eclipses, was camera obscura known in Europe at the time? If they knew that lunar and solar eclipses are offset by almost exactly 9 years, they could use the records of total lunar eclipses, which are much easier to observe, to predict solar eclipses.
  
  So, to sum it up, I have no idea.

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  denty > 27-07-2026, 09:40 PM

  Summary Table of the Medieval Workflow for Calculating an Eclipse from the Toledo Tables:
  
  Step                                               Purpose                                      Toledo Tables Used
  
  1. Mean syzygy                                Identify candidate eclipse             Mean motions
  2. Equations of center                       Correct Sun/Moon positions          Solar & lunar anomaly tables
  3. True syzygy                                  Exact conjunction/opposition        Mean motions + corrections
  4. Lunar latitude                               Determine if eclipse possible         Latitude tables
  5. Parallax                                        Local visibility                             Parallax tables
  6. Magnitude                                    Size of eclipse                             Radii tables
  7. Local circumstances                       Local timing                                Longitude/time tables

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  Jorge_Stolfi > 28-07-2026, 10:23 AM

  (27-07-2026, 09:40 PM)denty Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Summary Table of the Medieval Workflow for Calculating an Eclipse from the Toledo Tables:
  
  Step                                               Purpose                                      Toledo Tables Used
  
  1. Mean syzygy                                Identify candidate eclipse             Mean motions
  2. Equations of center                       Correct Sun/Moon positions          Solar & lunar anomaly tables
  3. True syzygy                                  Exact conjunction/opposition        Mean motions + corrections
  4. Lunar latitude                               Determine if eclipse possible         Latitude tables
  5. Parallax                                        Local visibility                             Parallax tables
  6. Magnitude                                    Size of eclipse                             Radii tables
  7. Local circumstances                       Local timing                                Longitude/time tables

  
  Thanks!   So, from that "workflow", I would guess that they could predict quite accurately when the next eclipse would occur; but the errors in the tables would cause prediction to fail beyond a certain point because the three bodies would not be sufficiently aligned on that date and/or the path of the eclipse would be inaccessible.  
  
  That is, the eclipse would not happen, but the non-happening would happen precisely when predicted. 
  
  Makes sense?
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  Jorge_Stolfi > 28-07-2026, 10:51 AM

  (27-07-2026, 08:36 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not even sure what method they would use to observe partial eclipses, was camera obscura known in Europe at the time?

  
  During a partial eclipse the shadows of trees become quite remarkable: the white spots created by small gaps between leaves become crescent-shaped instead of circular.  
  
  If that was not enough by itself, it should have inspired many to build their camera oscura.   All they needed was a small hole on the roof and a piece of paper on the floor.
  
  Here is the camera oscura I improvised to watch the local partial eclipse of 2020-12-14:
  
             
  
  It used a mirror that was actually a hard disk platter (which is very flat and smooth, and has no glass layer on top), covered with a paper sheet with a tiny hole on it.  The reflection from that tiny mirror was sent through a window into the living room, some 10-20 meters away.  Here is what the projection looked like before the eclipse started and at its maximum:
  
         
  
  The image was not sharp enough to see sunspots and the like.  With a smaller pinhole on the mask the image would have been sharper but dimmer. 
  
  All the best, --stolfi

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  denty > 28-07-2026, 03:12 PM

  (28-07-2026, 10:23 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (27-07-2026, 09:40 PM)denty Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Summary Table of the Medieval Workflow for Calculating an Eclipse from the Toledo Tables:
  
  Step                                               Purpose                                      Toledo Tables Used
  
  1. Mean syzygy                                Identify candidate eclipse             Mean motions
  2. Equations of center                       Correct Sun/Moon positions          Solar & lunar anomaly tables
  3. True syzygy                                  Exact conjunction/opposition        Mean motions + corrections
  4. Lunar latitude                               Determine if eclipse possible         Latitude tables
  5. Parallax                                        Local visibility                             Parallax tables
  6. Magnitude                                    Size of eclipse                             Radii tables
  7. Local circumstances                       Local timing                                Longitude/time tables

  
  Thanks!   So, from that "workflow", I would guess that they could predict quite accurately when the next eclipse would occur; but the errors in the tables would cause prediction to fail beyond a certain point because the three bodies would not be sufficiently aligned on that date and/or the path of the eclipse would be inaccessible.  
  
  That is, the eclipse would not happen, but the non-happening would happen precisely when predicted. 
  
  Makes sense?
  
  All the best, --stolfi

  
  Not necessarily precisely, as we have seen, the 1419 March solar eclipse calculation was out by 2 days too early. So I would say for a solar eclipse:
  7. Local circumstances: Look at the moon, is it new? Then it is happening, (whether or not it is visible from your location) otherwise wait for the new moon. 
  For a lunar eclipse, substitute full moon.

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  denty > 28-07-2026, 03:31 PM

  (28-07-2026, 10:51 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (27-07-2026, 08:36 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not even sure what method they would use to observe partial eclipses, was camera obscura known in Europe at the time?

  
  During a partial eclipse the shadows of trees become quite remarkable: the white spots created by small gaps between leaves become crescent-shaped instead of circular.  
  
  If that was not enough by itself, it should have inspired many to build their camera oscura.   All they needed was a small hole on the roof and a piece of paper on the floor.

  
  I use a smaller device, a shoebox with the lid on, many have a little corner tab for airflow that you can pull off and look through, just make a pinhole on the other side (the part not obscured by your head when putting your eye/camera to the hole).
  
  I also read in Wikipedia that Aristotle spoke of the leaves and of using a camera obscura
  
  

  Quote:Aristotle is also thought to have used camera obscura for observing solar eclipses.[18] The formation of pinhole images is touched upon as a subject in the work Problems – Book XV, asking:
  
  Why is it that when the sun passes through quadri-laterals, as for instance in wickerwork, it does not produce a figure rectangular in shape but circular?
  
  and further on:
  
  Why is it that an eclipse of the sun, if one looks at it through a sieve or through leaves, such as a plane-tree or other broadleaved tree, or if one joins the fingers of one hand over the fingers of the other, the rays are crescent-shaped where they reach the earth? Is it for the same reason as that when light shines through a rectangular peep-hole, it appears circular in the form of a cone?

  
  
• Next Oldest Next Newest