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• f68r: eclipse from 1419?

• f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  mgvtheus > 12-07-2026, 05:34 PM

  Hello everyone,
  
  I'm Matheus, a Voynich enthusiast. I am not an expert nor a researcher. Therefore, I don't know if this is a well-known fact, if someone has already made this hipothesis, or if I'm the first. I didn't find anyone talking about the same thing, so I decided to post it here for more experienced people to analyse.
  
  I was looking at some old posts in Stephen Bax's blog and found one that really caught my attention, about the eclipse in folio 68r. Andrés Eloy Martínez Rojas argued at that time that it might relate to an eclipse in april 15, 1409.
  
  While looking at the folio, it's pretty noticeable that there's a line drawn from the sun to a group of seven stars. Andrés argues that it's the Pleiades, but this just didn't make sense to me: why would the Pleiades have a line like this?
  
     
  
  This made me start a search for more reasonable guesses. After some days, I was able to identify something that caught my eye:
  
     
  
  This is a possible view of an eclipse that happened on march 26, 1419. Notice that the Pisces constellation is oriented in a way that (in my view) matches exactly the drawing, even the curve drawn in the manuscript is extremely similar to the "tail" of the Pisces. Also notice that the manuscript has seven stars drawn, and that the Pisces "head" also has seven stars.
  
  "But Matheus, where was the eclipse visible from? If it were only from the Americas, for example, this is useless!"
  
  Yes, and that's the most interesting part (in my opinion): the eclipse could be seen from pretty much anywhere in not only Europe, but many parts of Africa and Asia too at that time:
  
     
  
  If we were to get a glimpse of what the sky looked like specifically on northern Italy (given the handwriting, castle, etc.), it would be something like this:
  
     
  
  If we disable the atmosphere features:
  
     
  
  And if the orient the Pisces constellation to the manuscript's orientation (almost a 180º turn):
  
     
  
  From this, we could draw some questions and hypothesis:
  
  1. Which star is the one next to the (suposedly) Pisces constellation in the manuscript? My guess: it could be Uranus, Diphda or Fomalhaut. It matches the orientation.
  2. Which stars are the two at the top right? My guess: Venus and Jupiter OR Mars and Aldebaran. They also match the orientation.
  3. Which stars are the three at the bottom right? My guess: Schedar, Caph and Navi OR the three from the Camelopardalis constellation. Best fitting, the orientation is a bit messed up.
  4. Which stars are the four at the bottom left? My guess: Algenib, Alpheratz, Markab and Scheat? These were the most fitting ones I was able to find.
  5. Why would someone be drawing the eclipse? My guess: some kind of divination or mere description of the occured. If we take a look at the other parts of the folio:
  
     
  
  It looks like (at least to me) that there's a pretty solid order: we see the sun and the moon (is it the sun and the moon?) approaching and kinda switching phases, and this could be the author(s) saying something like "This happened, and right after we got an eclipse!" or something similar.
  
  Something though caught my eye: there's a star that almost repeats it's name in the full folio:
  
     
  f68r3: "dcholday"
  
     
  f68r2: "dcheoldy"
  
  Could they be the same star in different "states"? I don't know, but the word is almost the same. One could argue that the (possible) "root" is different (ol for one, eol for the other) but I don't know, maybe the root is just "old" or "ol" and "dch" and "dche" mean some kind of "state" of the star? Just speculation. If we get the sky everyday before the eclipse:
  
  (My Stellarium is in Portuguese, so be aware that "sol" = sun and "lua" = moon)
  
     
  March 25
  
     
  March 24
  
     
  March 23
  
     
  March 22
  
     
  March 21
  
     
  March 20
  
     
  March 19
  
  Considering the position, the similarity of the words and my hypothesis on which "star" that one next to the (alleged) Pisces represents, I think that dcholday/dcheoldy is in some form a label for "Uranus" or different states of the planet.
  
  Another thing I wanted to point out is the progression in the manuscript moon phases:
  
     
  
  One thing I noticed is that the moon goes new (at least it's what it appears to me). Indeed, in march 26 1419, the moon went new:
  
     
  According to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
  So maybe what's written around the moon is something talking about this? Like "last quarter" and "new" for each one? I don't know, it's an hypothesis.
  
  This is all, let me know what you think! I'm 100% NOT professional in this field, so I don't know if there are serious flaws here. Thank you!!

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  Linda > 13-07-2026, 12:40 AM

  Hi Matheus, 
  
  Your images didn't work as they were display pages, so I put in the images and left behind the imgur links by taking the [img][/img] off them as I went through your post. 
  
  

  (12-07-2026, 05:34 PM)mgvtheus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hello everyone,
  
  I'm Matheus, a Voynich enthusiast. I am not an expert nor a researcher. Therefore, I don't know if this is a well-known fact, if someone has already made this hipothesis, or if I'm the first. I didn't find anyone talking about the same thing, so I decided to post it here for more experienced people to analyse.
  
  I was looking at some old posts in Stephen Bax's blog and found one that really caught my attention, about the eclipse in folio 68r. Andrés Eloy Martínez Rojas argued at that time that it might relate to an eclipse in april 15, 1409.
  
  While looking at the folio, it's pretty noticeable that there's a line drawn from the sun to a group of seven stars. Andrés argues that it's the Pleiades, but this just didn't make sense to me: why would the Pleiades have a line like this?
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  
  
  This made me start a search for more reasonable guesses. After some days, I was able to identify something that caught my eye:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  This is a possible view of an eclipse that happened on march 26, 1419. Notice that the Pisces constellation is oriented in a way that (in my view) matches exactly the drawing, even the curve drawn in the manuscript is extremely similar to the "tail" of the Pisces. Also notice that the manuscript has seven stars drawn, and that the Pisces "head" also has seven stars.
  
  "But Matheus, where was the eclipse visible from? If it were only from the Americas, for example, this is useless!"
  
  Yes, and that's the most interesting part (in my opinion): the eclipse could be seen from pretty much anywhere in not only Europe, but many parts of Africa and Asia too at that time:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  If we were to get a glimpse of what the sky looked like specifically on northern Italy (given the handwriting, castle, etc.), it would be something like this:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  If we disable the atmosphere features:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  And if the orient the Pisces constellation to the manuscript's orientation (almost a 180º turn):
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  From this, we could draw some questions and hypothesis:
  
  1. Which star is the one next to the (suposedly) Pisces constellation in the manuscript? My guess: it could be Uranus, Diphda or Fomalhaut. It matches the orientation.
  2. Which stars are the two at the top right? My guess: Venus and Jupiter OR Mars and Aldebaran. They also match the orientation.
  3. Which stars are the three at the bottom right? My guess: Schedar, Caph and Navi OR the three from the Camelopardalis constellation. Best fitting, the orientation is a bit messed up.
  4. Which stars are the four at the bottom left? My guess: Algenib, Alpheratz, Markab and Scheat? These were the most fitting ones I was able to find.
  5. Why would someone be drawing the eclipse? My guess: some kind of divination or mere description of the occured. If we take a look at the other parts of the folio:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  It looks like (at least to me) that there's a pretty solid order: we see the sun and the moon (is it the sun and the moon?) approaching and kinda switching phases, and this could be the author(s) saying something like "This happened, and right after we got an eclipse!" or something similar.
  
  Something though caught my eye: there's a star that almost repeats it's name in the full folio:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  f68r3: "dcholday"
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  f68r2: "dcheoldy"
  
  Could they be the same star in different "states"? I don't know, but the word is almost the same. One could argue that the (possible) "root" is different (ol for one, eol for the other) but I don't know, maybe the root is just "old" or "ol" and "dch" and "dche" mean some kind of "state" of the star? Just speculation. If we get the sky everyday before the eclipse:
  
  (My Stellarium is in Portuguese, so be aware that "sol" = sun and "lua" = moon)
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  March 25
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  March 24
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  March 23
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  March 22
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  March 21
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  March 20
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  March 19
  
  Considering the position, the similarity of the words and my hypothesis on which "star" that one next to the (alleged) Pisces represents, I think that dcholday/dcheoldy is in some form a label for "Uranus" or different states of the planet.
  
  Another thing I wanted to point out is the progression in the manuscript moon phases:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  One thing I noticed is that the moon goes new (at least it's what it appears to me). Indeed, in march 26 1419, the moon went new:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  According to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
  So maybe what's written around the moon is something talking about this? Like "last quarter" and "new" for each one? I don't know, it's an hypothesis.
  
  This is all, let me know what you think! I'm 100% NOT professional in this field, so I don't know if there are serious flaws here. Thank you!!

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  Aga Tentakulus > 13-07-2026, 03:19 AM

  You’re talking about this darkness

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  oshfdk > 13-07-2026, 08:39 AM

  (12-07-2026, 05:34 PM)mgvtheus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is all, let me know what you think! I'm 100% NOT professional in this field, so I don't know if there are serious flaws here. Thank you!!

  
  I'm not an expert in eclipses either, but looking at the map of the eclipse I assume the red band is the total eclipse and the blue lines denote various levels of partial eclipse (75%/50%/25%?), with Europe being mostly in 15-35% eclipse zone. The first solar eclipse I ever experienced was a 30% one, and without special glasses I guess I would have hardly noticed it at all. The general daylight became somewhat less bright, but about the same as when you have the sun blocked by the thinnest of clouds. 70% of the sun uncovered is still broad daylight, there were no stars visible and the sky was as blue as normal. If I didn't know there was supposed to be an eclipse, I wouldn't have noticed it even if I was outside at the moment. To actually see the stars during the eclipse of 1419 one would have to be in central Africa or somewhere in the east, within the red band on the map.

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  Bernd > 13-07-2026, 11:37 AM

  This was an annular eclipse, not a total one. In Rome, about 1/3 of the sun's area would have been covered. That's not a lot. No planets visible in the sky, let alone stars.
  Even at the path of 'totality' in the Arab world and the max obscuration of 88% in Egypt, you probably would not have been able to see any other celestial bodies. Venus and Jupiter were too close to the sun. Definitely not the pleiades, no chance.
  
  Also a search turned up no mention of this eclipse, neither in European nor Arab sources.

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  Mauro > 13-07-2026, 12:05 PM

  (12-07-2026, 05:34 PM)mgvtheus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Considering the position, the similarity of the words and my hypothesis on which "star" that one next to the (alleged) Pisces represents, I think that dcholday/dcheoldy is in some form a label for "Uranus" or different states of the planet.

  
  I liked your post, however an identification with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is problematic: it was discovered in 1781.

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  mgvtheus > 18-07-2026, 04:52 PM

  So, Mauro noted that Uranus was only discovered during the 18th century, and many people noted that the eclipse was not visible from visible in this clarity, so from this I raise two options:
  
  1. It is indeed this eclipse, but somehow the author (or one of the authors) managed to know how the sky looked like somewhere in Africa/Asia where the eclipse was fully visible; or
  2. It is another eclipse.
  
  I think that the latter is improbable given the similarities that I found, and if so, the possibilities of the star that's supposed to be Uranus in my hypothesis may be:
  1. Indeed Uranus, but mistaken for a regular star, given that it was only identified as a planet during the 18th century; or
  2. Another star/planet between the sun and the moon (maybe? from the two similar words for the stars).
  
  From now, I thank everyone for the contributions to my hypothesis, indeed there were serious flaws as expected   but I'll keep on researching possibilities.

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  oshfdk > 18-07-2026, 05:13 PM

  (18-07-2026, 04:52 PM)mgvtheus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1. Indeed Uranus, but mistaken for a regular star, given that it was only identified as a planet during the 18th century; or

  
  It is practically impossible. Uranus is a very faint object in the sky. It's visible to the naked eye if you have dark skies and perfect vision, but it is totally unremarkable compared to more luminous stars, this is why it was not identified before the late 18th century. There are thousands of celestial objects that appear brighter than Uranus and there will be tens of brighter objects located at approximately the same position in the sky, with absolutely no reason to single out Uranus among them. So, it's extremely unlikely that a 15 century MS references Uranus as a celestial object in any way, and even if they did, obviously they would have to invent a name for it, since it wasn't known as Uranus back then.

• RE: f68r: eclipse from 1419?

  mgvtheus > 18-07-2026, 05:43 PM

  (18-07-2026, 05:13 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (18-07-2026, 04:52 PM)mgvtheus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1. Indeed Uranus, but mistaken for a regular star, given that it was only identified as a planet during the 18th century; or

  
  It is practically impossible. Uranus is a very faint object in the sky. It's visible to the naked eye if you have dark skies and perfect vision, but it is totally unremarkable compared to more luminous stars, this is why it was not identified before the late 18th century. There are thousands of celestial objects that appear brighter than Uranus and there will be tens of brighter objects located at approximately the same position in the sky, with absolutely no reason to single out Uranus among them. So, it's extremely unlikely that a 15 century MS references Uranus as a celestial object in any way, and even if they did, obviously they would have to invent a name for it, since it wasn't known as Uranus back then.

  
  First of all, thank you! 
  
  I agree with your analysis, indeed my identification of Uranus is quite absurd for the time, so it's most likely to be another star of the tens of possibilities we might have.
  
  I'll keep on researching.
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